Home Run or Catch?
 

Under-18 game. Bases loaded. 2 outs. Batter hits a long fly ball to deep right field. The right fielder at the warning track jumps as high as he possibly can. He catches the ball in mid air while most of his body is still on the playing side of the fence. His momentum from the jump and stretch takes him over the fence. Somehow the player didn't hurt himself. He retains possession of the baseball but is now on the other side of the fence.

Is this a legal catch or should the batter be awarded a home run (grand slam in this case).

If this was a legal catch, what would be the situation be with less than 2 outs? Would the ball be considered dead? All runners advance 2 bases? All runners advance 1 base?

Thank you.

Not sure what the rule set is in an "under 18" game. But the play results in an out and,with less than two outs, the runners move up a base, assuming no other base running errors.

The runners, under any rule set, could not move up two bases.

The mo

5.10

The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The umpire-inchief shall call “Time” --

(f) When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field.
As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04 (c) shall prevail. If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril.


7.04
Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when --

Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base. (c) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field;
Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

2.00

Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.

Catch. With 2 outs inning over. With 1 out the ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base.

What If
 

R1, batter hits a long drive. R1 is off and running and has rounded second base when F8 leaps and catches the ball before he falls over the outfield fence.

Place the runner.

Assuming that fewer than 2 were out before the play, R1 to third, but he must retouch.

Cite a rule please, because I don't agree.

2B - 7.04(c)

No way.

The runner must return to first on a caught fly ball.

First base is the last legally touched base in this situation.

He is awarded second base.

Rich Ives,consider this.

With less than two outs and r1 off on the pitch the batter hits a long fly that the outfielder makes a great catch but does NOT go out play.

R1 halfwayto third has to beat a hasty retreat to first and beats the throw but the bal lis booted by the first baseman and goes into the dugout.

R1 would be awarded third base on the overthrow: two bases from the last base legally touched.

Under your previous interpretation he would have been awarded home, which makes no sense.

My apologies to Rich Ives.

It was mbyron who got the awarded bases wrong.

Cite the rule that you feel applies.

Right, by rule we award one base from his last, and since he's rounded 2B, that's 3B.

BUT, he must retouch on the caught fly, or he's liable to be out on appeal.

AND, once he retouches, the award is one base from 1B, that's 2B.

IIRC, enforcement changed recently for situations like this. But any way you do it, it appears you help somebody.

"You, go retouch, and then go to 2B!" -- You've helped the offense.

"You, 3B!" OR "You, 2B!" -- You've made it seem as if he does NOT need to retouch, which helps the defense if they know to appeal.

When awarding bases, it is up to the runner (or his coach) to know he must retouch a base left too soon. I would never tell a runner to retouch. Simply say "You, 2nd base". If he fails to retouch 1st Base, he would be out on appeal.

Right. Send him BACK to 2B (he'd already rounded). And then what do you say to the base coach who enquires, "Isn't that award 1 base from the last base legally touched?"

If you reply, "1B is the last base legally touched, coach," you've given the game away.

Second base was never legally obtained,by rule.

If the coach does not know the rules that is his problem.

The ball is dead on the player going into the stands. Runners are entitled to move up one base.

If R1 fails to retouch first and is appealed he is out.

Then you can explain the rule to the coach, or invite him to the next rules interpretation clinic.

So just say "Yes."

He runs the bases properly and the defense appeals, the runner is out. He was past second when the ball went dead.

He was past second when the ball went dead

His last legally obtained base was first base since the ball was caught on the fly. If he stays on second without retouching ihe s in jeopardy of being called out on an appeal.

That's only in FED. In NCAA and OBR the runner is allowed to retouch.

You're right. I was thinking I read that when I posted Rule 7.10. Seems only the missed base applies.

Thanks for all the quick responses. The game in question from my original post plays straight up official rules of baseball.

So a fielder making a catch and falling over a fence is always an out. If less than two outs, any runners advance once base.

Got it. Thanks!

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

He's rounded 2nd, the award is 3rd. Not my problem if he doens't fulfill his obligation to re-touch (before he touches 3rd). I,m not out there too second guess if the D is gonna appeal, nor am I guessing the O isn't trying to steal one. Award the base and rule on the result/s.

Once everyone see's the out call on the catch, their supposed to know what to do, retouch, if less than two outs.

Would a runner fail to retouch if he was scrambling back to 1st to do so, when the ball went past the F3 and OOP, probably not. Even if you called "time" and awarded 3rd before, he had re-touched. Might confuse em, but only once, I'm sure.

They should also know the runner can retouch on a dead ball, as long as he hasn't touched the next base, after the ball is dead.

And if he does touch the next base and still goes back and retouches, I sure ain't stopping him there either, that's the defenses job to know he can't, and to make a proper appeal.

Not
Ump: "whoa there base runner where you going"?
BR: "Ah, back to re-touch sir".
Ump: "No you can't, because you've already touched the next base after the call of time on a DB".

Or
Ump: "You second".
BR: "But sir, that's a one base award, I already touched 2nd".
Ump: "I know, but you left early and have to retouch, so I can only make you go backwards, to the base you already touched, cause if I let you keep going, you'll still be subject to appeal at 1st.

Just none of our business IMO. Make your award and rule on any developments.

The award is 2B, after he retouches 1B. "YOU, second base" is the award. If he goes there and stands without going back to 1B to retouch I wait for the appeal, after the ball is made live mind you. Until it is made live he can go back to 1B and if he or his coaching staff is on the ball he will. If he goes there touches 2B, returns to 1B and then goes back to 2B I have a legal award and bases touched properly.

You're killing it?
 

Why kill it? If anything, the only proper award to make is 2B. If ump sends R1 to 3B, something bad may happen as soon as R1 begins to follow ump's directions. If R1 touches 3rd, he also loses the opportunity to retouch 1B.

Stay away from "Time, you on 3B, go back to 2B." or "Time, you on 2B, stay at 2B."

I would signal the out on the catch and keep quiet. The base coaches better instruct R1 to 1B because there are not many baserunning options open for them. I would signal the 2nd out upon proper appeal at 1B or for a tag.

SAump:

Would you endorse not saying anything other than "catch" until the runner retouches 1st, then award 2nd? A bit of preventive umpiring by not saying anything?

Or is that too much prodding and allowing the runner a way to get back to first even if he's stupid (and his coaches).

Time, you 3rd base, is what ya gotta call.

That is just moronic.

Sticky ruling
 

Be careful with the type of appeal, either for placement or for re-touch. Not saying anything until an appeal is made for the proper placement of R1 to go back to 2B or 1B. I would grant the placement appeal back to 2B, but not 1B during the dead ball situation. Then I would wait for a live ball and/or first pitch to determine whether R1 is out or has stolen either 2B or both 2B and 3B. Teams also have a responsibility to know the situation.

LL Myth 17. The runner gets the base he's going to, plus one on a ball (carried or) thrown out-of-play.

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use.

I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted.

Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it.
Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either.

At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.

If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B.

I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust.
It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM:
Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught.
Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout.
Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.
Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base.
Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.

However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

So close, error in bold
 

Quoting your MLBUM was good. Did you notice both "howevers" and feel right about the original ruling? Someone brighter than me would have to explain why the difference in opinion appears in the MLBUM.

OBR 7.05(i) Comment {2}: If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

In MLBUM play above, the correct award was 3B. From BRD #35 Play 44-35, "At all levels the umpire awards R1 third. In FED (if it's legal), NCAA, and OBR , if the runner does not retouch before he touches third, he is in peril of being called out on appeal." BRD #419 also provides for the same ruling. R1, may not return to touch 1B in FED or NCAA {when not in act of returning}; but in OBR, "he must return before receiving the award."

You simply cannot give the runner in the OP any base but second. This was not an overthrow, it was a dead ball after a legal catch and the award. by rule, is one base. Since the runner must return to first base to legally advance, dead ball or live ball, he can only be awarded 2nd base.

Period.

One last try; ah, the english language.

The term: A runner "must return", is not an all inclusive description IMO.

Yes, that's what is says verbatim, and that is a very accurate description IF, there is an appeal.

It means. A runner "must return to be legal and safe from an appeal".

There is no where, in any rule set, that makes it "mandatory", i.e. "this game will not re-commence until the runner re-touches". Nor, "I'm not ruling anything until he re-touches. It just ain't so.

At the time the ball goes out of play, kill it, make the 1 base award like the rule says, from where the runner is at the time the ball became dead.

I see the moralality of what your saying, but hey, enforcement of the rules doesn't alway involve morality.

I really think a F5 charging a week dribbler up the line and throwing from a horizontal position to just miss the runner at 1B by a 1/2 step, is immoral. Hey, he hit a weak grounder to the infield, F5 made a great play, but guess what, he's still safe.

The argument that "this is not an over throw" means nothing. It's a dead ball and a base award is warranted. The only difference is how many bases.

In the MLBUM quote: the orginal award is two bases, that didn't change, runner was past 2B, he is awarded 3RD and HP. If he does that, okay, score the run, unless, there is an appeal, then ring him up on his coaches behalf.
The offense screwed up not me.

If he goes back and retouches, the award is to 3rd.
Hey, an Umpire can change his mind, I like that.

I don't see a difference enforcing a "2 base award" vs a "1 base award" during a retouch situation.

If the runner returns to re-touch, I change the ruling and award 2B. That wasn't hard now was it?

Every rule set means, the runner, must re-touch legally, in the right order etc., to be "exempt" from being called out on appeal.

Same play, with R1 tagging and leaving just a tad bit early. He still "must return". But if he doesn't, the one base award is still 2nd, even if he doesn't retouch. He's on second illegally, so what? Not my problem. Defense appeals he's out, they don't, he's on 2nd.

Good topic. But to answer the OP, yeah, legal catch and a one base award from where the runner are at the time the ball goes dead. So R1, to 2nd, R2 to 3rd, score R3, and yes, even if one or all em failed to retouch.

Period.

We disagree, the correct award is what is is and I would never recommend making an incorrect award knowingly. Whether he goes back to touch is a separate subject.

After a Catch?
 

You may have been right all along or perhaps you correctly presented some outdated information. Perhaps the play you outlined from the MLBUM was printed in an older version. Perhaps this was one of them times when a revision was introduced. Rules are changed all the time for one reason or another.

Play 217-419 ... {Similar to your play} ..."In OBR: regardless of his actions, he may retouch 1B before advancing to 3B. {He is initially awarded home! Maybe. See Play 218-419 next.} "

Play 218-419: 'R1 leaves too soon and is between 2B and 3B at the TOT that goes dead. R1 is not returning to 1B. (Revised) Ruling: In FED and NCAA, R1 is awarded home. {In FED and NCAA, R1 cannot return to touch 1B.} In OBR, R1 is awarded 3B, 2 bases from his original base.

I am quoting from the 2006 BRD, #419. Be aware of the possibility that you may need to re-clarify your position after you compare the two plays with the latest MLBUM information on this topic. That is why we read this website and discuss these things. That is why most of us look forward to the next edition of the BRD.

You award third, then revise it to 2B IF he retouches 1B. The rationale is that by only awarding 2B you are announcing the screw-up.

Note that MLBUM is contrary to PBUC on this play. So, we're left with (a) one of them is wrong, or (b) there's a different ruling in MLB and MiLB, even though both use OBR.

B.

There are several interpretations that are different in MiLB from MLB. There are even some rules in MiLB that do not exist in MLB.

MiLB umpires, at least the new ones, are discouraged from reading the MLBUM, JEA and J/R so they do not get any rules or interps confused.

Thanks Garth.

So both sides in the above debate are correct under "OBR".

I see the moralality(sic) of what your saying, but hey, enforcement of the rules doesn't alway involve morality.

This discussion may have gotten technical, but I doubt, no matter how any of us rule, it has reached the point where it needs divine intervention, or even a runner to Rome.:)