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njdevs00cup Sun Jun 24, 2007 09:20am
Little League Slide Rule
 
At what point does a player in Little League have to slide into a base? Does a fielder have to possess the ball?

Rich Ives Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevs00cup
At what point does a player in Little League have to slide into a base? Does a fielder have to possess the ball?

He NEVER has to slide.


7.08 -- Any runner is out when -(a)(3) the runner does not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag;

GarthB Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevs00cup
At what point does a player in Little League have to slide into a base? Does a fielder have to possess the ball?

Try this: http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/

AKA Little League Umpire.howcome

BigUmp56 Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Try this: http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/

AKA Little League Umpire.howcome
I thought Rich did a fine job of answering the question on this forum.


Tim.

SanDiegoSteve Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Try this: http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/

AKA Little League Umpire.howcome
Where is it written or specified that no one is allowed to ask a Little League question? Did this become your private forum all of a sudden, where only shaving age questions are asked?

GarthB Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
I thought Rich did a fine job of answering the question on this forum.


Tim.
Not knowing LL rules, I'll take your word for it.

GarthB Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Where is it written or specified that no one is allowed to ask a Little League question? Did this become your private forum all of a sudden, where only shaving age questions are asked?

No, just nostalgic. This forum, before your arrival, was started as place where non-LL umpires could gather and discuss issues relevant to them. Some of us were specifically recruited to come here from other sites with that promise.

Ahhhhh. The good ol' days.

BigUmp56 Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
No, just nostalgic. This forum, before your arrival, was started as place where non-LL umpires could gather and discuss issues relevant to them. Some of us were specifically recruited to come here from other sites with that promise.

Ahhhhh. The good ol' days.

Ahhh, yes, the site for "real umpires." Was this to be exclusive of just LL umpires, or all youth league umpires?


Tim.

SanDiegoSteve Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:08pm
Unfortunately for your grand plans, there are far more youth league umpires than HS, NCAA, and pro umpires combined. You should have realized that eventually the tide would turn.

BigUmp56 Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Unfortunately for your grand plans, there are far more youth league umpires than HS, NCAA, and pro umpires combined. You should have realized that eventually the tide would turn.
Not only are there more youth league umpires, they're the ones most in need of getting help from an outlet like OF. How many myths have been disspelled because of this forum........


Tim.

Illini_Ref Mon Jun 25, 2007 07:25am
I find it interesting that LL uses "slide or attempt to get around", instead of "slide or avoid contact". In theory could a LLer make contact with a fielder with the ball as long as he was "attempting" to get around said fielder?

The rule is obviously there for safety reasons. I think it should say "a fielder in possession of the ball or awaiting an impending play". As long as it isn't malicious, a LLer can make contact as long as the ball is not in the glove of the fielder.

bob jenkins Mon Jun 25, 2007 07:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
Not only are there more youth league umpires, they're the ones most in need of getting help from an outlet like OF. How many myths have been disspelled because of this forum........


Tim.
Approximately zero.

aceholleran Mon Jun 25, 2007 07:31am
I think it's important to welcome any and all umpires
 
I'm not the best, but in 30+ years, I've done everything from Li'l Squirts to a summer, college/20-something/ex-pro league.

I do think that some of us can get a little uppity with newbies or ones who have LL questions.

Can't we all live together?

Ace

Rich Ives Mon Jun 25, 2007 09:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref
I find it interesting that LL uses "slide or attempt to get around", instead of "slide or avoid contact". In theory could a LLer make contact with a fielder with the ball as long as he was "attempting" to get around said fielder?

The rule is obviously there for safety reasons. I think it should say "a fielder in possession of the ball or awaiting an impending play". As long as it isn't malicious, a LLer can make contact as long as the ball is not in the glove of the fielder.
Because the runner's entitled to attempt to run the bases and get to the base. The rule applies everywhere, not just at home or at a base. And if the tag attempt is away from a base (in a rundown for example) you don't want to always require a slide then do you? You need an alternative.

Yes, he could make contact while going around. But, if the runner starts to go around and the fielder moves into his path and "causes" the contact you don't want the onus on the runner - do you?

Do you want to require runners to give up?

Illini_Ref Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
Because the runner's entitled to attempt to run the bases and get to the base. The rule applies everywhere, not just at home or at a base. And if the tag attempt is away from a base (in a rundown for example) you don't want to always require a slide then do you? You need an alternative.

Yes, he could make contact while going around. But, if the runner starts to go around and the fielder moves into his path and "causes" the contact you don't want the onus on the runner - do you?

Do you want to require runners to give up?
No, I just want them to slide or avoid contact. If contact is made it should be done while sliding, with some exceptions. For instance if the play is well up the line, the runner is not going to slide or if the fielder initiates contact. I just like the "avoid contact" ruling better, that's all.

BigUmp56 Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref
I find it interesting that LL uses "slide or attempt to get around", instead of "slide or avoid contact". In theory could a LLer make contact with a fielder with the ball as long as he was "attempting" to get around said fielder?

The rule is obviously there for safety reasons. I think it should say "a fielder in possession of the ball or awaiting an impending play". As long as it isn't malicious, a LLer can make contact as long as the ball is not in the glove of the fielder.
Illini,

I'm curious what rules set provides that a runner must "slide or avoid contact"? The LL rule where a runner must slide or attempt to get around a fielder is essentially the same as FED "does not legally slide or attempt to avoid a fielder.


Tim.

PeteBooth Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Where is it written or specified that no one is allowed to ask a Little League question? Did this become your private forum all of a sudden, where only shaving age questions are asked?
I am not speaking for Garth, but the main reason he most likely referred the poster to that Forum was because LL rules are unique and there are many experienced LL umpires at eteamz who can answer not only this type of question but many others as well.

Example: I have not umpired LL in quite some time but my Summer assignor has the Contract for some 50 LL BIG League games. LL has institututed many new rules or changed rules througout the years so I asked some specific questions on that Forum ie; LL Rule 7.14 (Special Pinch runner rule)

Also, items such as Can the coach warm up F1. Pitch count limits etc. etc. that unless you SPECIFICALLY umpire LL you would have no clue about. They were very helpful

The tournament rules are also different. Hey speaking of the tournament where's Dave with his infamous Chart for LL All Stars?

Therefore, in a nutshell IMO it's not about ego but directing posters to the BEST place that can answer their question(s).

Pete Booth

BigUmp56 Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth
I am not speaking for Garth, but the main reason he most likely referred the poster to that Forum was because LL rules are unique and there are many experienced LL umpires at eteamz who can answer not only this type of question but many others as well.

Example: I have not umpired LL in quite some time but my Summer assignor has the Contract for some 50 LL BIG League games. LL has institututed many new rules or changed rules througout the years so I asked some specific questions on that Forum ie; LL Rule 7.14 (Special Pinch runner rule)

Also, items such as Can the coach warm up F1. Pitch count limits etc. etc. that unless you SPECIFICALLY umpire LL you would have no clue about. They were very helpful

The tournament rules are also different. Hey speaking of the tournament where's Dave with his infamous Chart for LL All Stars?

Therefore, in a nutshell IMO it's not about ego but directing posters to the BEST place that can answer their question(s).

Pete Booth

Believe it or not, Pete, there are quite a few very knowledgable members here that can and do answer LL specific questions just as well as at any other forum.


Tim.

Tim C Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:55pm
Hmmm,
 
See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamond umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the opportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,

BigUmp56 Mon Jun 25, 2007 01:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamonds umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the ooportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,
I understand that, Tim. Still, there are those of us who work LL juniors through big league that like to discuss LL rules and mechanics here. I like knowing that I can have an exchange with Rich Fronheiser, Dave Hensley, and others here about LL mechanics and rules for the big diamond. As has been said many times before; there are LL umpires and there are umpires who umpire some LL.


Tim.

Illini_Ref Mon Jun 25, 2007 01:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
Illini,

I'm curious what rules set provides that a runner must "slide or avoid contact"? The LL rule where a runner must slide or attempt to get around a fielder is essentially the same as FED "does not legally slide or attempt to avoid a fielder.


Tim.
I am saying that "slide or avoid contact" would be better wording for ALL rule sets that have similar language. More black and white for the umpire that way. If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.

GarthB Mon Jun 25, 2007 01:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref
If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.
I can't speak for LL, but for other codes, that is exactly why they don't have the language you suggest. Contact happens and you can't have blanket policy.

Using the phrase "attempt to avoid" makes far more sense. It keeps the onus on the runner, but recognizes reality.

Jim Porter Mon Jun 25, 2007 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
See I am much like Garth. I enjoy sites that allow small diamond umpires the choice of posting in a specific "small diamond" area (if they would only use that option).

I never hidden my ultimate dislike of small diamond baseball. Elitist or not matters not too me . . . I just "like" sites where we talk of full sized games played by shaving aged players.

eTeamZ seems to be the perfect place for small diamond umpires to get the correct information from people that treasure the opportunity to umpire (and coach) in that environment.

Regards,
The original post, although likely asked by a poster with the small diamond in mind, had an answer that applied to all divisions of Little League right up to 18-year-olds.

Just because someone says, "Little League," doesn't necessarily mean it's a small diamond topic. It can also very much pertain to big diamond big-boy baseball. In some parts of the country, Little League's 16-18-year-old division is just as competitive as some amateur-independent leagues.

LilLeaguer Tue Jun 26, 2007 09:26am
Why I'm here
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
I can't speak for LL, but for other codes, that is exactly why they don't have the language you suggest. Contact happens and you can't have blanket policy.

Using the phrase "attempt to avoid" makes far more sense. It keeps the onus on the runner, but recognizes reality.
And this kind of response is why this LL umpire is here.

I'm not actually planning on officiating different rule codes, but I'm fascinated by the additional insight they give to the rules and standards of baseball. I'm sure that I'm a better LL umpire from reading (and very occasionally posting) to this site.

In any case, as you're well aware by now, it's hard to keep the riffraff out of a publicly accessible internet forum. But there are any number of sites that allow anybody to create a private message board and exclude me. I hope you don't completely leave the public internet; you'll be missed.

ozzy6900 Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref
I am saying that "slide or avoid contact" would be better wording for ALL rule sets that have similar language. More black and white for the umpire that way. If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.
Okay, Illini_Ref; read your post again slowly! In order for your "slide or avoid contact" explanation to work, you must also add a "must slide" statement! Why? Because in your explanation,
Quote:
If you make contact (not initiated by the fielder) and are not sliding, you are out.
. Of course, if you say that a runner "must slide" then you must determine "when" a runner has to slide. After that, you must evolve the discussion to "how" a runner has to slide - feet first, head first, pop-up, body block, cross body, rolling - the list ca go on and on! And after all that, you have to figure out the penalties for each of the violations!

Simply put, none of the 3 rule sets (OBR, NCAA & FED) dare to put a runner in the dirt for any reason. The spin offs (LL, Babe Ruth) also do not force a runner into the dirt. Only idiotic "local rule" jerks try force players to slide thinking that it will do something (what I still haven't figured out in over 40 years) to help the game!

The best advice I can give you is simple, work within the rule set's definition for FPSR, illegal slide, or malicious contact. There you will find the proper instructions for when a runner should get down (runner's choice) and whether said slide will be accepted. To do otherwise is just asking for trouble!

Regards

Rich Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Ace, you weren't around when I explained this before, so I'll give it another go.

This has nothiong to do with elitism. I volunteer my time to train youth umpires as well as our asociation umpires. I've done this for years. I have also assigned for youth leagues and supervised their umpires.

I don't mind answering questions from youth umpires (provided they ask about mechanics or about rules with which I am familiar). I get PM's and emails on a regular basis from youth umpires.

However, much like when I teach and can escape once in a while to the teachers' lounge and have adult conversations without interruption from students, it was nice to have an internet board where umpires of similar background and experience could discuss and debate relevant issues. It doesn't seem unreasonable that one internet board would be created for non LL (generic) umpires to do just that as this board was.

However, LL umpires apparently have this need to dominate every board they come across. Look at the top three umpiring sites: Eteamz, ABUA and Officialforum. LL umpires are the vast majority at the first two. They can and do ask their questions and recieve answers all day long. They "own" those boards and that's fine. I tire of some of their posts so I don't go to Eteamz at all and severely limit my time at ABUA.

Add to those boards the numerous second and third tier boards which LL umpires completely control and the options they have are incredible.

Officialforum was like a sanctuary at first. Carl sent out invites to help get a "non LL" board started.. Naively, we assumed that since LL umpires already had alternatives, if they came to the new board they would come to learn about non LL ball. No problem with that. God knows beginners need a place to learn about rules other than LL.

Gradually, but with the certainty that Tee predicted, as LL umpire found the site and got their OBR, FED and NCAA questions answered, they began bringing their LL baggage with them as well. When they ask LL specific questions, I refer them one of the predominantly LL boards where they can get their questions answered by experienced LL umpires.

Oh, well, the invasion isn't limited to the boards. I was involved with a private list that went the same route. It's as if your favorite neighborhood bar got bought out, redesigned and recruited a new clientele and went from a sports theme to a 20 something martini bar.

Now I don't expect anyone to agree with this, but I had expected some to understand. Again, I was naive.
It's not naivete in the case of the mailing list, it was more a case of not waiting and seeing what would happen. The one member I added has asked a few questions (non-LL) and doesn't participate much. I didn't exactly go to the LL mailing list and throw invitations to all that posted there.

Sometimes, it's nice to open the door to the lounge and allow people to listen to the conversations that go on there. In your case, my friend, you left way too quickly and you'll always be welcome back.

Rich Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Best explanation I have seen yet on the subject of FPSR in any ruleset. Now, whether you remove the bad attitude I marked in bold above or simply improve the wording for political corrrectness; I imagine you can answer 20% of the LL'ers FPSR questions. ;)
I umpired at an unfamiliar park once and a manager argued that the runner ALWAYS had to slide at the plate, even if there was no play being made.

I think that guy may have made it into the second inning.

Jim Porter Tue Jun 26, 2007 08:05pm
As it turns out, the Eteamz site is all screwed up. Many people can't log in and post there these days, including me. So I suspect, particularly as tournament season heats up, we'll be seeing more traffic here from Little League folks. Brace yourselves.

DG Tue Jun 26, 2007 08:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Porter
As it turns out, the Eteamz site is all screwed up. Many people can't log in and post there these days, including me. So I suspect, particularly as tournament season heats up, we'll be seeing more traffic here from Little League folks. Brace yourselves.
http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?name=Forums

A very credible site.

Jim Porter Tue Jun 26, 2007 08:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of that -- especially considering I'm a moderator there. :D

That's still beside the point. The log-in failures at Eteamz may unleash a torrent of small diamond umpires searching the Internet for a place to ask their questions as the tournament progresses. I expect an influx of traffic both here and at umpire.org.

mbyron Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:02am
Ew. .........


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