partner????? i guess not...
 

i had the plate at an american legion game tonight. good crowd and good teams. my partner is a veteran high school umpire who happens to be the president of a local high school association (not mine).

bottom of the first, no outs, R1. ground ball to F4, he flips to F6 for the force and F6 attempts to relay to first to turn the DP. R1 clearly slides out of the base line in an attempt to disrupt F6. both of R1's legs are on the outfield side of the bag. he reached out with his left hand to grab the bag. He was out and BR was safe at first. I was close to the mound watching the play develop at 2nd and immediately called interference and indicated that BR was also out due to FPSL. text book call.

3rd base coach - (head coach) and 1st base coach descend on me and both are eventually ejected after lengthy arguments. they both hit the magic words - "you suck" and "you're an *******" they then con'td to rant and rave and refused to leave the field. my "partner" did not budge from the "A" position the entire time. i tried walking away, turning my back, ignoring the coaches, threatened forfeit, etc. my "partner" never once came to my assistance. this lasted at least 10 minutes. eventually, we realized that the team did not have any additional coaches remaining - i declare a forfeit. on my way off of the field i'm cursed at and bumped by a player - i eject him. a fan refuses to let me out of the field and threatens me, the asst coach follows me into the parking lot and another fan acosts me at my car. never once did my partner say a single word or take a step in my direction to assist me.

this coach has a reputation for being an a..hole. i've never had any issues with him in the past. but, i think my partner was actually afraid to get involved!!!

i still can't believe it all went down the way it did.
i've sent an ejection report to my assignor and the league commissioner.
any suggestions with how i should deal with this "partner" in the future?
i've just starting doing college ball, so i don't really deal with him much at all during school ball.

:shrug:

Sorry for your trouble.



..............

He ignored you so....

On the situation, toss the assistant as quick as you can and deal with the manager. 10 minutes is way too prolonged an argument. 2 minutes tops...

i tossed them both after a minute or two. everything else after that was post-ejection and pre-forfeit hoopla.

Your partner ran you over, back up and ran you over again. But 30 seconds tops. 2 minutes is way too long in my book

What were you doing out by the mound and why would you make a call that's not yours?

are you kidding?

2 man system.

not my call?? please.

Actually, any INT at 2B on a possible double play ball is the PU's call. You're supposed to be following the ball to 1B.

Okay, well I've been out of baseball for a few years. I guess things have changed.

Back a few years ago the proper mechanic for the plate umpire with R1 on any batted ball was to move up the third base line -- not out to the mound.

Never heard that interference at 2nd is the PU's call. I don't care for that. No reason the BU can't make that call.

Well Don, he said that he was the plate umpire, and the INT at 2nd was his call. The BU is supposed to be following the ball to 1B.

I would not want to work with any umpire who doesn't have the balls to stand up to any game participants. He should have been insuring you a one-on-one conversation with whoever was in charge after each ejection, not standing out at "A" chewing seeds and kicking dandelions. A good partner has your back regardless of what he thinks of your calls on the field.

That's strange Jim, as I've been umpiring since 1986, and at least since then it has always been the plate umpire's call on INT at 2nd base when there is a throw following the play. If F6 had not made the throw to first base, then the call remains with the base umpire. The reason the PU takes the call on a throw is that many times, the INT happens after the throw, when the BU has already turned with the play.

Is this a FED thing? How can you have interference that the BU can't see after the throw?

thanks SDS. i was PU, and obviously, it was my call.


if F6 eats the ball and does not make the throw to 1st b/c of the INT - i imagine that call is open to PU or BU - right?

D'oh...re-read it, and saw I skimmed over the first words. All I saw was "out near the mound," so I guess I assumed he was BU. Guess this round's on me.....

You know, I'm thinking about this even more because I'm perplexed, and I can even remember learning the mechanics quite clearly. Not only was I taught to clear the catcher and move up the third base line as PU, but I was also taught as BU not to drift and anticipate the back-end of the double play so that I would be in position to see and call any possible interference.

I've never heard of a PU clearing the catcher and coming out to the pitcher's mound. I've also never heard that the PU's responsible for interference on the front end of a double play. Both of those are news to me.

Is this a result of me coming from a backward OBR state? Or have I been doing it wrong for 20-something years?

Jim,

You were never taught the correct mechanic. PU clears F2 to left and drifts up the 3B line (Normal coverage in case R1 goes to 3B on base hit or error, etc). Once the out is made at 2B, PU cuts across toward 1B OR retreats toward HP to cover pulled foot/swipe tag at 1B. PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time, as BU will have stepped and turned with throw to 1B.

Our association utilizes the CCA mechanics. Their description of this play: (With R1, batted ball to the infield) "UIC moves to the third base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with the slide at at second base by R1."

No, it's a PBUC thing.

Often contact is made with the pivot man which does not become interference until after the ball has left the fielder's hand, by which time the BU must be turning with the throw for the play at first. Much action happens at this point, and the PU has the responsibility to determine whether or not interference has occurred.

Many times the BU can see the INT, but it still remains the PU's call. If PU doesn't call it and the BU is sure it was INT, then he should by all means go ahead and make the call himself, just as if there were no throw.

My understanding is that PBUC teaches this as a shared responsibility, either umpire can make the call.

Just curious...how do they resolve it if they both make contradictory calls on the play? Do they use rock, paper, scissors or Einie, Meenie, Miney, Moe?:)

Shared does not mean simultaneous.

Garth, my point is that if it is a shared call, how do you determine which umpire is going to make it? I think that is why so many associations teach it for the PU to take the call if there is a throw to first on the play.

It's not like a safe/out simultaneous call that could cause mass confusion. The guy not seeing the INT isn't going to be making any sort of gesture, verbal or otherwise. I hope, anyways. If it's blatant enough that the BU can see it and his partner's picking daisies at the dish, then the BU should make that call. But a lot of the time, BU has already pivoted towards the play at 1st.

Okay, I'm not familiar with CCA mechanics. There were some NCAA umpires in our high school association and I know there were some differences between what we were doing and what they were doing. I remember it was seldom an issue.
This must be a fairly recent change, anyhow. Our UIC was a former pro and he was teaching the mechanics that he learned. We had our own mechanics and interpretations book that everyone referred to as, "the bible." It was NAPBL-era stuff. Shared responsibility on that play is not in the bible, so it was not part of the mechanics when he was working pro ball.

I still don't see how interference could possibly happen in such a way that the BU doesn't see it. But that's okay. I am capable of change.

You guys keep saying this, and for the life of me I can't figure out how. BU should be pivoting with the throw. The throw should already have been made. The interference should either have happened or not have happened by the pivot. How can a runner interfere with a throw after it has already been made?

The way I figure it, your eyes are on the ball up high, and the runner on the ground may be out of your field of vision at the time. If you're focusing on the ball, how do you know what the guy on the ground is doing? I'm not saying you can't see INT from your spot, just trying to give a reasonable explanation.

Well, I appreciate the reasonable explanation. Of course, for that matter if you're looking up high at the ball, how can you watch for the tag/touch of 2nd base? I'm just being facetious now.

Just because it doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean I'm not willing to do it. But I doubt any explanation could satisfy me. I think this should be BU's call all the way. But who am I? Just some rusty schmuck umpire on an Internet forum.

I was taught exactly as you described, right up until the part where you said, "PU has interference responsibility at 2B at same time".

The NFHS and NCAA have additional restrictions on the runner sliding -- must be at the base or away from the fielder. Hence, the PU is expected to bust out from the plate and get to the side of the mound in order to rule on this force-play slide rule. There are differences in the NFHS and NCAA code, but the expectations on the plate umpire are the same.

Being from a non-FED state, you never would've been exposed to the FPSR.

I'm not surprised that PBUC is splitting responsibility, but the likelihood of INT happening after the throw in an OBR game is small.

What does PBUC say?
 

I'm certain that no where in the PBUC manual does it avise that it is the PU's responsibility to make the INT call at 2nd. It's true that if the PU sees the INT, then he may call it, but he should be nowhere near the mound in this situation. Unhitch the piano, and haul you butt to the holding area (library) at 3rd base.

Why? The BU has all plays on balls that stay in the infield, including a subsequent play at third base.

Wouldn't PBUC recommend the PU trailing up the FIRST base line and look for pulled tags and swipe feet and other such squirrels?

What I've learned this year from having the priviledge of speaking with four new MiLB umpires and one AA umpire who worked at PBUC is that what PBUC teaches and what PBUC writes are often two different things.

It would be nice if they were consistent, but from what I've seen, that would require annual, and at times, mid-season rewrites of the manual.

Currently, PBUC, on infield batted balls with R1 only, instructs that the PU has any play at third, on that rare occasion that R1 can run 180 feet on an infield batted ball. (He does NOT, however, have that same responsibility with R1/R3 as he would with a ball to the outfield.)

In the play that started this thread I have been told that primary, or first call responsibility belongs to BU but that PU can make a call absent one from BU.

In FED, a pop-up slide that contacts the fielder is INT, even if the ball has already been thrown.

Never worked FED. Worked for 24 years in an OBR state. OBR for high school, Legion, MSBL, and independent/amateur leagues. But now I have to learn FED since I've moved, so this thread is good for me.

It used to be under PBUC mechanics that the PU had the second play on the infield at third base. That I do know. Once the out at second occurred the PU would bust back for swipe/pulled duties on the first base line. I couldn't say if that's true today.

Even that was a big flip-flop. At first it was the recommended mechanics, with "advanced crews" allowed to let the BU take both ends. Now, it's the reverse.

I think.

Anyway, in my games, I come up the side of the mound and watch the slide at second. I can always take R1 to third if something strange happens.

Minor League instruction
 

I can say conclusively that in 1997, the BU had the interference call at second in PBUC. The umpire was to see the whole play at second and not take his eyes off of the play at second until the middle infielder released the ball to first. In fact, at the UDP (PBUC) camp that year, it was stressed over and over by "Sarge" not to turn to first too quickly because you (the BU) will miss the interference at second.

The PU was to start up the third base line, and when there was an out at second...start back toward 1BL.

It was not until I came back to the college/high school that I became aware that others organizations give a contradictory instruction (allowing PU to call interference at second).

It shouldn't matter either way...if you have a good pre-game with your partner.

Okay, so I'm not wrong, I'm just getting old. :D

(Post deleted to eliminate redundancy.)

What you describe is the red book mechanics, but the red book umpires do not have to call the FPSR. The CCA mechanic is for PU to go to 3B side of the mound to assist U1 if needed on a slide at 2b (ie FPSR violation) and then step toward 1B for a secondary responsibility on assistance on swipe tag or pulled foot. This is of course on batted balls to the infield, if the batted ball is near the line or in front of the plate, the PU must stay home to rule on Fair/Foul and to rule on possible running lane violation.

I know nothing of legion: I thought they used OBR. If so, why think FED's FPSR applies?

The game ended with just those 2 outs recorded? That's impressive. Sounds as if there are some game management issues -- could your partner have been right not to get involved in the mess? Can you think of how you might have handled the situation better?

I was also under the strong impression that Legion used OBR. I have been reviewing Legion rules recently for an upcoming tourney, and I don't recall any FPSR on the bases in there.

Right, and through my entire career I did not have to call the FPSR. It all makes sense now.

I believe this situation has been on-going for years with Legion. They do use OBR, but because most states use FED rules for high school ball, all they have are FED umpires for Legion ball. And I've heard that some Legion programs have mandated the FED book for their programs.

:eek: And then you get the states OR area's that use a mix of OBR and FED.We have two Districts that are side by side and one uses a mix of OBR,Fed and the other uses pure FED rules!!!!! Go figure and then try to remember which league you're doing before you make a call.

That is certainly not the case here in San Diego. Our association spent an equal amount of study to both rule sets, as every other level except high school and Triple-A Baseball uses OBR or modified OBR. We could and did jump from FED to OBR on a game-to-game basis with regularity. American Legion games were OBR based, with modifications.

90% of the so-called FED umpires also work every other conceivable level of baseball.

The other 10% are too good to work any other level but Varsity.:rolleyes:

Open the PDF of the American Legion rules at this site and look at page 3.

http://www.baseball.legion.org/alb_rules.htm

Legion ball here will get Varsity FED umpires and some NCAA guys, both of whom have to call the FPSR. Legion here plays the American Legion rules.

Legion here plays American Legion rules too. It's just that the last Legion game I worked, I rode in on my brontosaurus. They were not using any special sliding rules at that time. That is a relatively new safety feature.

Yeah, I haven't worked Legion since they instituted FPSR too. They had a malicious contact rule, but not FPSR.

duh on me.....its essentially the same as FED. Guess I should study more and talk less :o

i was working the game. american legion in PA uses OBR w/some safety modifications including FPSL - the intent, if not the wording, is virtually identical to the FED rule.

i work college ball so I stick with CCA mechanics – which indicate With R1, batted ball to the infield "UIC moves to the third base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with the slide at second base by R1.

Legion has adopted a FPSR add-on that is nearly identical to the NCAA model.

Garth, you are letting me down. i'm sure you know that ncaa changed its FPSL rule in 2007 to allow for the runner to slide thru the bag and it also allows for a pop up slide. (although neither of these situations occurred in my play)

Neither FED, nor Legion allow these types of slides. the Legion rule is very similar to the FED rule, but it is clearly not as liberal as the NCAA rule.

FED does allow a pop-up slide. The runner just can't execute a pop-up slide and make illegal contact with a fielder.


Tim.

That's why I said "nearly."

agreed that you can pop up slide in FED if you don't make contact. you also don't have to slide directly into the bag in FED as long as you slide away from the fielder.

secondly, the ncaa does allow pop up slides even with contact.


my point is that the legion rule is much closer to the FED rule than the NCAA rule - correct?

I dunno...check the penalty at home and on the bases.

You concern yourself with things that you don't even know what you're talking about. There wasn't a law against reading the forum before I joined. Personally, I have noticed some new members that are very familiar to some of the current ones. Hell, I couldn't care less.

IMO, it is others stirring up trouble. I will continuously avoid any references and replies to others that feel the need to instigate. Please feel free to keep me on your ignore list. Rule 2. to a successful life-GET ONE!

I certainly hope you (and others) will heed those words.

Bob, don't be an instigator. :D