Scissors vs. Box (or GDS)
 

Had a conversation with a long time veteran that insists that the scissors is the most widely used and accepted plate stance. Just wanted to get a rough idea of how many of us use the scissors as opposed to the box.

Your thoughts??

Both pro schools teach the slot.

Hehehehe,
 

Insert Art Linkletter here:

" . . . long term veterans" say the darndest things!

His statement is not remotely correct.

Regards,

He should have said that the scissors is the most popular stance with those umpires who prefer the scissors. That would be a true statement.

Whatever works for you, I guess; and maybe I'm visualizing wrong, but this [back leg @ 45 degrees] sounds like a BAD idea, exposing a LOT more upper leg [thigh] and the side of your calf/ankle/foot to errant balls, defeating your protective gear for that leg. Newbies should NOT try this at home. I'm guessing you never had anything like an upper-level clinician watch you and work on your stance.

If the reason you are going this way is stability issues, try to get someone to work with you on your stance. I had all kinds of problems until I got someone to work with me to do the scissors correctly. Hard to write instructions, but stand relaxed with your feet about shoulder width apart, then step STRAIGHT BACK with the "back" leg: no more stability problems.

In the interest of full disclosure: I gave up the scissors when my aging knees and learning the GDS both required and permitted a "better" way.

"The slot" is a location, not a "stance".

Your partner is either misinformed or an idiot. Not only is the scissor stance used less than others, it continues to decline in use annually as both pro amateur umpires learn of its potential health risks.

This is true. I used the stance for 14 years and developed diabetes, heart trouble, and COPD.:eek:

Steve:
 

While your post was very funny (even though the health issues are serious) we need to keep in mind that there are serious health risks associated with working the scissors.

Regards,

Like your neck being exposed!

Uh-oh - did I just score a point for the dingle-dangler's group?

Puts a whole new spin on "What stance do you use at the plate?" ;)

I was required to use the heel/toe stance (called "box" by pro umpires) in the slot while in the minors. I found that after every game my knees would be killing me. And I was in my young 20's. I often had to ice my knees after games.

Now before everyone starts posting, "well you must have been doing the (box) stance incorrectly"....being a minor league umpire I was evaluated multiple times during the season. And I can assure you, that the one area I was NOT zinged for, was a lack of proper stance. In fact, I was told that my stance looked very good, by mutliple evaluators. So according to reliable outside sources (MiLB evaluators) my stance was "correct".

However, as a result of my knee discomfort, I could not wait to switch to the scissors when I left the minors and went down to college, Legion and High School. I have used the scissors for 7 years and I love the stance. My knees never hurt.

After being on these boards as a poster for several years, I am very cognizant that there is a risk of neck issues from using the scissors (T is a very reliable poster). So far I've had no issues at all. However, if I start feeling anything...who knows what I'll do? What does an umpire need more: a neck or knees?

It depends very much on what's at the other end of the neck.

Go to GDS and save them both.

That's a weighty subject.

Tried...I don't like. I know I'm stubborn, but it was just too far out of my comfort zone.

If you prefer sore knees or the risk of neck injuries over the "discomfort" of the GDS, then what grounds for complaint have you concerning the former?

One would think that any new stance would take an experienced umpire out of his comfort zone. The issue is whether the advantages of the stance make it worth the trouble reshaping one's comfort zone.

As you probably know but others might not, the risk of neck injuries is significant and the basis of the prohibition of "scissors" among MiLB umpires. Insurers won't cover those who use it. I suspect that this might one day extend to FED, ABUA, and other groups carrying injury insurance for umpires.

MLB umpires may still use it without losing their insurance; I would infer that MLB pays extra premiums to cover the extra risk. Ah, the show!

Well for those that are so lazy they won't use the search feature on this website (there are at least 15 threads about the stance) try this:

http://www.baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2904

There are also picture references in at least four threads.

Regards,

The bottom line is: I tried the GD stance for several, several games. I felt that I was not as good a ball & strikes umpire for whatever reason. (I admit it might totally be psychological). Hey, I said I'm stubborn.

I, personally, feel the most comfortable in the scissors. I'm never tired after a nine-inning game (I always feel as if I can go a few more innings), and I consistently have solid game after solid game with balls and strikes (based on self-evaluations). Until and unless my neck becomes sore and/or the stance is banned in a manner like you suggested, I'm sticking with it. I will also drop it if the stance, though not banned, goes the way of the outside protector. That is, anyone who uses it is considered to look "unprofessional". I allow for the possibility that the stance could be nearly entirely filtered out of the profession, just like the "true" box stance.

I did my first game in '78 and over the years have only used a few stances. I even tried the inside knee on the ground for a while back in the mid 80's. I have been using the heel/toe squat until last year. At the advice of another seasoned ump, I tried the GD during a Mens Sunday wood bat game. Wow, not sure how I got along without it. I am stable, my head height is consistent and I can open the gate both ways with no problem. I never heard of neck problems with the scissors until reading this thread. The fault I found with it is opening the gate on the off side. I actually fell on my a$$ during a JC game. Not cool.

Good catch. Barain fart on my part.:o

Use what works.

what about the scissors stance causes neck problems? is it the "whiplash" that could happen when you get hit in the mask, or is it just the stance puts an abnormal strain on your neck?

Do you mean a Bahrain fart, the type you get when you eat bad food in Saudi Arabia?:)

You can take a hit either way. It's more important to find out what works for you and this can change according to the level of play. I like "squat to heels" for younguns, inside positioning as play skills increase. I'm somewhere between 4'4" and 8 feet tall so you can see, your height can also make a difference as does the TOCH "Top Of Catcher's Head". Try, experiment, find out for yourself.

If Minor League Baseball/ "evaluators" had any brains at all, then they would look at each individual and consider his situation. If your evalaution had you as a miserable ball-strike caller, duh, maybe it was because you were distracted by pain. It's not your fault that your body doesn't like a certain semi-static position and what difference does it make if you do a good job? This is a typical power-control agenda, using this or that as a "highway or bye-byeway". Ever watch "Big Love"?
Coin toss. Neck if you have no knee issues, knees if you can't do your job because of them. I assume you are wearing a hockey styled mask, right?

Find a new vet to understudy.