Tagged on a force out
 

I hope that I am not misunderstanding this forum but I am a coach for a 14U baseball team and have a question considering a ruling. The situation was bottom of 7th, 2 outs runner on third. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop in the hole. He fields and throws the ball to first, while he has thrown the ball the runner from third has reached home. The throw by the shortstop pulls the first basemen off the bag and he makes a tag rather then the force on the bag. Does the run score or not?

No.

Force has nothing to do with this. The run does not score when the third out occurs before the batter/runner safely reaches first.

Technically Garth is correct with respect to this situation not being a force but rather a BR not reaching first.

However, if the same play had taken place at second or third then the run would not count because the third out would be a force.

First simply has a different wording then the other bases but the end result is the same.

There's nothing technical about it. That is the rule. And the wording helps to understand that it doesn't matter if the out is by tag of the runner or tag of the base.

OP: asks question

GarthB gives correct ruling and rule that is relevent.

tibear adds pointless drivel to a question that wasn't asked.

And now the thread will turn 180 degrees into something else :D

Interesting phrasing of the rule. And in fact I don't think it is strictly correct. Consider R1 and R3 and the batter lines out to an outfielder. R3 tags and crosses home plate before R1 is doubled off at first. This is the situation described in the comments following 4.09. The third out occurs before the B/R safely reaches first, but the run does score.

For CoachTom's benefit, the relevant rule is 4.09(a) Exception. A runner scores if he legally touches each base in order, and has crossed home plate before the third out is recorded. The exception is that the run does not score if the third out is made by the B/R before he safely reaches first, or by any other runner if he is forced out (and this includes a tag out before he reaches his forced base or he is called out on appeal for missing a forced base), or by a preceeding runner who is called out for missing a base.

Garth was correct in his explanation and I don't know why there is such a build on this thread but maybe I can clarify.

Simply put, if the third out is a force or if the batter-runner does not attain 1st base, the run does not score.

As far as the batter-runner is concerned, whether the base is tagged or the batter-runner is tagged (as in the original situation) matters not. The batter-runner did not attain 1st base - run does not score!

Regards

Correct ruling, but incorrect reasoning. BR made the second out. R1 made the third out on the appeal play.

Not knowing the history of the poster in the OP (their first post), I wanted to make sure they didn't infer from Garth's response that force tags at other bases were somehow treated differently then the play at first. As indicated the wording is slightly different when the play is at first but the end result is exactly the same. Not a timing play.

By adding the information about the other bases, it covered the difference between force and timing plays on all of the bases.

Can you show me how with two outs and a runner on third, the play is treated any differently if the BR is tagged before getting to first or R1 or R2 being tagged before they get to their next base? The call is EXACTLY the same, it is NOT a timing play. Yes, they are called something different but the outcome is EXACTLY the same.

I find that the more information you give novices the more confused they get. (Some umpires included, on occasion myself included). I for one would like the rulebook remove the wording for BR not reaching first and simply the rules by making it a force situation. Then every base is treated exactly the same.

Same with the wording for Infield Fly. It bothers me to know end when they say with runners on first and second or first, second and third. Simply eliminate the first, second and third because if we have the bases loaded by definition we have runners at first and second. Make the rule as simple as possible and there is a better chance that everyone will understand.

There I feel better. :)

tibear,

I don't think your post was "drivel". GarthB was correct. However, one could easily foresee the Original Poster coming back and asking: "what about if R1 was tagged out at second after R3 touchded home, instead of a middle infielder holding the ball and touching second base?" You foresaw this question and answered it correctly.

The pointless drivel, I'm afraid, came soon after your post, tibear.

Why all the fuss over something so simple? Tom, all you need to ask yourself is this: Is the final out of the inning a force out (whether the forced runner is tagged or the base is tagged) or the batter runner failing to reach or touch first base? If yes, then no runs score on the play.

Yes, it is correct. See Bob's post for why your's isn't.

tibear on IFF rule: Simply eliminate the first, second and third because if we have the bases loaded by definition we have runners at first and second.


Simple. Because if you have the bases loaded come coach (an maybe even an under-educated umpire) will say it isn't in effect because the rule says just first and second.

I concluded long ago, Garth, that if you ask most umpires what time it is, they won't tell you; instead, they'll tell you how to build a watch. :D

You should have been at the Midwest region's NCAA Umpire meetings in Indy this year, where we spent at least an hour over ONE little question on the new NCAA Force Play Slide Rule. The question so hotly discussed? The pop-up slide being legal if done in line with the base. :eek:

Well, it should've been clear by game 2 or so. Just about every slide this season at second during my college schedule was a pop-up slide. I'll need to get to one of those meetings next year.

All right, I'll try again. Garth said: "The run does not score when the third out occurs before the batter/runner safely reaches first."

This implies that the run doesn't score if any third out occurs before B/R safely reaches first. In fact for this part of 4.09(a) Exception to hold, the third out must be made by the B/R, and by the B/R only. Obviously both you and Bob Jenkins know this, but for the benefit of others I included a ubiquitously cited situation to demonstrate that the above quoted statement isn't quite right.

There are other ways for the exception to be invoked, but in those cases the status of the B/R is not relevant.

I'm not sure what part of my original post you think is incorrect, but I like to think that the paraphrase of rule 4.09 is correct. And this current post shows that I think my first paragraph was also right.

Easiest discussion in the world: Coach with bases loaded are there runners at first and second?? Let's play ball.

I believe in the KISS philosophy and it seems the authors of the baseball rulebook don't. They should try to simplify the rulebook as much as possible so there wouldn't be so much confusion.

Garth, technically he's right. You MEANT - the 3rd out is made BY the BR before the BR reaches first ... but it's not what you said, and that difference is what he's talking about. There are numerous ways the 3rd out could be made BEFORE BR reaches first in which runs would score - most notably any case where the BR is the 2nd out, and a 3rd (non-force) out is made anywhere else before BR (no longer a runner) reaches first.

Is this a nit? Yes ... but I understand why he wanted to clarify this for the OP.

Just kind of wondering Coach, How the hell you can UNDERSTAND this forum?????