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-   -   Still First Play by an Infielder... (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/35168-still-first-play-infielder.html)

TussAgee11 Tue May 29, 2007 11:30pm

Still First Play by an Infielder...
 
Had this scenario today, just wanted to get some thoughts on it.

R1 stealing, line drive to F5, who bobbles, then chases the ball down and throws into DBT.

I award R1 home (after thinking in my head for about 3 seconds about whether this should still be the first play by an infielder). He was past 2nd at the TOT.

The reason I ruled this was two fold. First off (and I'm sure this doesn't matter but it went into my logic for the 3 seconds I thought), F5 had to make more than a step and reach to retrieve the ball. I thought perhaps since he would no longer be a privledged fielder, his throw wasn't the first play anymore.

Also, I thought, what if a R1 beat out a throw to second, and then F4 threw into DBT. That isn't still the first play by an infielder, home should be awarded.

So, thoughts, and rules citations?

BoomerSooner Wed May 30, 2007 12:05am

The way I've always handled this play is that as long as it is the initial play in terms of the fielder collecting the ball and throwing immediately to first then it is still the first play. The bobble would only matter if the fielder picked the ball up and made a play toward 2nd (i.e. fake throw, step towards, etc) then decided to thow to first, you could call that the 2nd play, but otherwise I'm calling it the first play.

On a throw to 2nd then 1st you would be right, it is no longer the first play.

bob jenkins Wed May 30, 2007 07:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Had this scenario today, just wanted to get some thoughts on it.

R1 stealing, line drive to F5, who bobbles, then chases the ball down and throws into DBT.

I award R1 home (after thinking in my head for about 3 seconds about whether this should still be the first play by an infielder). He was past 2nd at the TOT.

The reason I ruled this was two fold. First off (and I'm sure this doesn't matter but it went into my logic for the 3 seconds I thought), F5 had to make more than a step and reach to retrieve the ball. I thought perhaps since he would no longer be a privledged fielder, his throw wasn't the first play anymore.

Also, I thought, what if a R1 beat out a throw to second, and then F4 threw into DBT. That isn't still the first play by an infielder, home should be awarded.

So, thoughts, and rules citations?

A "catch attempt" is not a play (at least for the purposes of this rule). So the throw to first was the first play. Two bases TOP (unless BR and all runners had reached the next base).

Al Wed May 30, 2007 07:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
A "catch attempt" is not a play (at least for the purposes of this rule). So the throw to first was the first play. Two bases TOP (unless BR and all runners had reached the next base).


That's correct, Bob, in every rule set I know of the runners are awarded two bases from where they were at the time the ball is throw out of play if it is the first play made on the infield. If the throw is the second or subsequent play made from the infield or is a throw from the outfield, the runners are awarded two bases from the last base they touched from the time of the throw.

mbyron Wed May 30, 2007 07:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al
That's correct, Bob, in every rule set I know of the runners are awarded two bases from where they were at the time the ball is thrown out of play if it is the first play made on the infield. If the throw is the second or subsequent play made from the infield or is a throw from the outfield, the runners are awarded two bases from the last base they touched from the time of the throw.

This is incorrect: based on what you've said you're awarding bases in every situation from time of throw. You've made it sound as if the crucial difference in base awards depends on where the runner is, which is not correct.

For the OP, the catch attempt does not count as a play, so the throw to 1B is the first play by an infielder. Thus, the award is 2 bases from the time of pitch - when the pitcher begins motion to the plate. R1 to 3B, BR to 2B.

R1 stealing on the play is not relevant to the award, as he had last touched 1B at TOP.

mcrowder Wed May 30, 2007 08:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Had this scenario today, just wanted to get some thoughts on it.

R1 stealing, line drive to F5, who bobbles, then chases the ball down and throws into DBT.

I award R1 home (after thinking in my head for about 3 seconds about whether this should still be the first play by an infielder). He was past 2nd at the TOT.

The reason I ruled this was two fold. First off (and I'm sure this doesn't matter but it went into my logic for the 3 seconds I thought), F5 had to make more than a step and reach to retrieve the ball. I thought perhaps since he would no longer be a privledged fielder, his throw wasn't the first play anymore.

Also, I thought, what if a R1 beat out a throw to second, and then F4 threw into DBT. That isn't still the first play by an infielder, home should be awarded.

So, thoughts, and rules citations?

Unless BR had also reached first before F4 threw the ball, this is still a TOP award, R1 to third.

Al Wed May 30, 2007 08:21am

[QUOTE=mbyron]This is incorrect: based on what you've said you're awarding bases in every situation from time of throw. You've made it sound as if the crucial difference in base awards depends on where the runner is, which is not correct.

For the OP, the catch attempt does not count as a play, so the throw to 1B is the first play by an infielder. Thus, the award is 2 bases from the time of pitch - when the pitcher begins motion to the plate. R1 to 3B, BR to 2B.


The runner is awarded two bases from where they were at time of pitch (not throw) when the ball is thrown out of play and is the first play made on the infield. If the throw is the second or subsequent play made from the infield or is a throw from the outfield, the runner is awarded two bases from the last base the runner touched from the time of the throw. Thanks for catching that. I had throw on my mind because I was adding subsequent plays or throws from the outfield that go into dead ball areas. I havn't had my coffee yet. I'll just leave it as written since this post explains what happened.

mbyron Wed May 30, 2007 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder
Unless BR had also reached first before F4 threw the ball, this is still a TOP award, R1 to third.

I think you're responding to a different scenario. The second question was this: F5 bobbles, throws late to F4 at 2B where R1 is safe. F4 then relays to 1B but throws out of play.

This is no longer the 1st play by an infielder, so the award is 2 bases from time of throw. R1 (now R2 at TOT) is awarded home, and BR is awarded either 2B or 3B depending on whether he had acquired 1B at TOT.

mcrowder Wed May 30, 2007 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron
I think you're responding to a different scenario. The second question was this: F5 bobbles, throws late to F4 at 2B where R1 is safe. F4 then relays to 1B but throws out of play.

This is no longer the 1st play by an infielder, so the award is 2 bases from time of throw. R1 (now R2 at TOT) is awarded home, and BR is awarded either 2B or 3B depending on whether he had acquired 1B at TOT.

No, I was answering the first question, where OP improperly sent R1 home.

mbyron Wed May 30, 2007 09:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder
No, I was answering the first question, where OP improperly sent R1 home.

OK, but F5 threw the ball in the first question, and F4 in the second. That's what threw me off.

UMP25 Wed May 30, 2007 10:19am

[QUOTE=Al]
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron
The runner is awarded two bases from where they were at time of pitch (not throw) when the ball is thrown out of play and is the first play made on the infield.

Most, but not all, of the time. ;)

TussAgee11 Wed May 30, 2007 03:50pm

Ok guys, thanks. I kicked it. Live and learn.


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