Asking for help???

[bisonpitcher]

In a game this weekend, R3 on with 1 out 2 man crew. Ground ball to Short, the throw is slightly up the line, enough for the F3 to stretch for, and the ball is caught for the out. The first baseman stretched directly toward me in C. I saw no seperation from the base so I called the BR out. The Runner scored and I jogged back to A. When I got near the 1st base coach, he asked if I would check to home for a pulled foot. Since I was somewhat straightlined on the play, I said OK and approached my partner (whom i hadnt worked with before) and asked him if he had a foot on the bag. Instead of just saying yes or no, he proceeds to YELL "I cant see that from here." Then the fans let us have it. They werent even complaining about whether the foot was pulled until then. So I stuck with the out call, then after the game my partner says, "He did pull the foot just a little bit, but I wasnt going to call it since i am supposed to watch the runner cross home." I told him that if I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that his foot stayed on the bag, that i wouldn't have granted the appeal, that the most important thing was to get it right. He simply stated that he didnt want to make me look bad by overturning the call, I told him that we looked WORSE by him yelling that he couldn't see in front of the coaches and fans. How would you guys have handled this situation???

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

In a game this weekend, R3 on with 1 out 2 man crew. Ground ball to Short, the throw is slightly up the line, enough for the F3 to stretch for, and the ball is caught for the out. The first baseman stretched directly toward me in C. I saw no seperation from the base so I called the BR out. The Runner scored and I jogged back to A. When I got near the 1st base coach, he asked if I would check to home for a pulled foot. Since I was somewhat straightlined on the play, I said OK and approached my partner (whom i hadnt worked with before) and asked him if he had a foot on the bag. Instead of just saying yes or no, he proceeds to YELL "I cant see that from here." Then the fans let us have it. They werent even complaining about whether the foot was pulled until then. So I stuck with the out call, then after the game my partner says, "He did pull the foot just a little bit, but I wasnt going to call it since i am supposed to watch the runner cross home." I told him that if I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that his foot stayed on the bag, that i wouldn't have granted the appeal, that the most important thing was to get it right. He simply stated that he didnt want to make me look bad by overturning the call, I told him that we looked WORSE by him yelling that he couldn't see in front of the coaches and fans. How would you guys have handled this situation???

For this particular instance:

"Get some help"

No need, he's out.

Next time, make the adjustment so you aren't straightlined.

[bisonpitcher]

As far as being straightlined, I moved in toward the mound to get an angle but the F3 stretched directly at me at the last moment, after i had set, front leg and body obscuring the view of most of his foot on the bag. The coach asked me in a civil tone if i would ask the HP umpire if he saw a pulled foot. I dont have a problem asking for help if I am not 100 percent sure of something.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

As far as being straightlined, I moved in toward the mound to get an angle but the F3 stretched directly at me at the last moment, after i had set, front leg and body obscuring the view of most of his foot on the bag. The coach asked me in a civil tone if i would ask the HP umpire if he saw a pulled foot. I dont have a problem asking for help if I am not 100 percent sure of something.

Are you listening to what Garth said or just making excuses?

Again, there's no reason to be straightlined on this. Move towards the 45 foot line and get the right angle. And when the coach asks, follow Garth's advice.

Or, if you prefer to get thrown under the bus......

BTW, which coach? did you ask the plate umpire cause the first base (read: assistant coach) asked you?

[bisonpitcher]

Not trying to make excuse, I did go toward the 45 foot line, all the way to the dirt of the mound, but the first basemans late stretch blocked me. I guessed blocked by the first basemans leg and body is a better word than straightlined. And yes, this was the first base coach, and no I usually will not grant an appeal by the asst. but in this instance, I granted the appeal because I did get blocked. I wanted to just make sure we got the call right. I guess I shouldnt have granted the appeal, but isnt getting it right the most important thing?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Not trying to make excuse, I did go toward the 45 foot line, all the way to the dirt of the mound, but the first basemans late stretch blocked me. I guessed blocked by the first basemans leg and body is a better word than straightlined. And yes, this was the first base coach, and no I usually will not grant an appeal by the asst. but in this instance, I granted the appeal because I did get blocked. I wanted to just make sure we got the call right. I guess I shouldnt have granted the appeal, but isnt getting it right the most important thing?

Getting the call right is important, but that doesn't mean you have to go to a partner. It should mean that YOU get your call right.

If you weren't sure, why did you make the call?

If you weren't sure and you wanted to get help, you should have done that before making a call.

Allow action to play out, call time and consult with your partner, without yelling across the diamond. Take what information he gives you, consider it, and make your call.

I'm always convinced of my call. That doesn't mean that I'm right 100% of the time. It means I'm confident I'm correct when I make my call. If I didn't work that way, I wouldn't umpire. I can't imagine making a call I didn't think to be correct.

When you learn not to read the play and throw, and not set until you're sure of a quality throw, and to adjust when you don't have a quality thrown, you will not get straightlined.

[bisonpitcher]

Where would you have positioned yourself for the throw? I would like to know if I am positioning myself incorrectly in this instance. I have worked HS ball for years and this is the first time I can remember getting blocked in this way. I have always been taught to watch the ball release by the infielder and pick up the first baseman, and set if he appears to have a routine play at first. He was set normally and at the last instant lunged forward and to his left, directly at me. It was so late that if I would have moved to my left to get a better view, that I would have been moving at the time of the catch. Granted the appeal could have been handled better, but I would like to know if there is a better place for me to go here than toward the 45 foot line. And for the call, I could see no seperation from the bag, so I wasnt going to call what i could not see.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Where would you have positioned yourself for the throw? I would like to know if I am positioning myself incorrectly in this instance. I have worked HS ball for years and this is the first time I can remember getting blocked in this way. I have always been taught to watch the ball release by the infielder and pick up the first baseman, and set if he appears to have a routine play at first. He was set normally and at the last instant lunged forward and to his left, directly at me. It was so late that if I would have moved to my left to get a better view, that I would have been moving at the time of the catch. Granted the appeal could have been handled better, but I would like to know if there is a better place for me to go here than toward the 45 foot line. And for the call, I could see no seperation from the bag, so I wasnt going to call what i could not see.

You stated ground ball to F6. Was it to your right or left (IE: did you have to go that far toward HP to clear the throw)?

That being said, step and lean to get the best view possible is about it.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Where would you have positioned yourself for the throw? I would like to know if I am positioning myself incorrectly in this instance. I have worked HS ball for years and this is the first time I can remember getting blocked in this way. I have always been taught to watch the ball release by the infielder and pick up the first baseman, and set if he appears to have a routine play at first. He was set normally and at the last instant lunged forward and to his left, directly at me. It was so late that if I would have moved to my left to get a better view, that I would have been moving at the time of the catch. Granted the appeal could have been handled better, but I would like to know if there is a better place for me to go here than toward the 45 foot line. And for the call, I could see no seperation from the bag, so I wasnt going to call what i could not see.

Bison,

What Garth is trying to tell you is what we preach here ad nausium - One Play, One Call! Get all your facts before you make the call, not after. If you saw F3 on the bag and you called it, tell the coach "Coach, if I needed help to make the call, I would have gotten the help before I called it!" and leave it at that. You were fine until you decided to entertain the coach's request especially after you came from "C" to "A". Let this be a lesson, One Play with Two Calls never does anyone any good. Get you facts, make One Call and be done with it.

Regards

[David B]

[QUOTE=bisonpitcher] Instead of just saying yes or no, he proceeds to YELL "I cant see that from here." /QUOTE]

idiot partner! Never yell anything about a call. If you have something to discuss do it in private.

Thanks
DAvid

[RPatrino]

Bison, your adjustment from C in this case would be to move a bit more toward the 45 and baseline to remove the 'straightline'. It's a quick momentary thing.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Where would you have positioned yourself for the throw? I would like to know if I am positioning myself incorrectly in this instance. I have worked HS ball for years and this is the first time I can remember getting blocked in this way. I have always been taught to watch the ball release by the infielder and pick up the first baseman, and set if he appears to have a routine play at first. He was set normally and at the last instant lunged forward and to his left, directly at me. It was so late that if I would have moved to my left to get a better view, that I would have been moving at the time of the catch. Granted the appeal could have been handled better, but I would like to know if there is a better place for me to go here than toward the 45 foot line. And for the call, I could see no seperation from the bag, so I wasnt going to call what i could not see.

1. It's difficult to answer this since I have no idea where you were on the field. "C" can and does mean many different things. There is no permanent "X" on the field marking A,B,C,D. (Which is one reason the pros do not use those labels. They want to avoid umpires thinking there is one spot that is "B" and one spot that is "C"...etc.)

With R3 only, I am very deep in my C positioning, since any play on him will involve him coming back to the bag from the home side, and I don't need to bust into the grass for the angle, I already have it.

I begin establishing an angle on the play to first when the ball is hit. I read it it's direction and how the fielder is playing it...is he waiting it out...is he moving in on it?

I turn with the ball, keeping chest to ball and I am moving towards an angle that will allow me to see any space between the firstbasemen's foot and the bag, pending a good throw. I then read the throw and adjust immediately, if necessary. I do not come to a standing set until I read a quality throw.

Depending on the andle of the throw from F6, and I may adjust towards second base or to the 45 foot mark on the first base line. It's all on the play.

Straightlining can be avoided.

2. You suggested the "appeal" could have been handled better. You bet. If you've already made your call, there shouldn't be one.

[btdt]

The road to hell is littered with chaos in the image of “getting it right”. It is not unusual to create more problems than you had. Be in position, know the situation and read the play accordingly, announce your judgment with confidence.
Limit “getting it right” conferences to a pre-determined set of criteria that you have decided are acceptable situations.
The theory of “Getting it right” is a double edged sword.

[jicecone]

I agree with the advice already given.

One other thing I might suggest is a better pre-game discussion with your partners. Don't assume someone is following the same procedures and mechanics as you. Especially if they are a new partner.

I did a game once where my partner said if I come to him, he would always go with my call so as not to make me look bad. I had to explain to him that I wanted the his opinion based upon what he saw and not on what I called.

[Cub42]

1) When you are in C, if you are not 100% sure if he held the bag, or on a swipe tag, go to your partner BEFORE you make a call and ask him exactly what you want to know. " Did he hold the bag ". Your partner should answer either yes or no, then you make the call. This should be discussed in your pregame conference.

2) Asst. coach??? We only discuss situations with the Head coach.

3) After you make that call, there is no help. You stated you were sure he held the bag. When you do things as a courtesy, you look indecisive, and weak. You will have them asking for help on every call that goes against them.

4) Review your mechanics