Who scores??
 

FED Rules......bases loaded...2 outs....batter hits homerun.....runner at 2nd misses 3rd base...

Page 50 of the rule book
8-6-k
Third out running infraction—first sentence.

If the baserunning infraction is the third out , runs scored by the following runner(s) would not count.

Does the fact that this was on a homerun and all runners awarded home change this ruling? I see the runner missing third not being allowed to score, but do you take the runs off the board for the runners who legally completed their award?? I have a 12 pack of Schmidt Big Mouth Bottles bet on this one, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Assuming the defense did in fact appeal the miss at 3rd by R2, the runner at 3rd scores. That's all.

Significantly different than OBR where no run may score if the third out is made on a force.


Tim.

FED Rules......bases loaded...2 outs....batter hits homerun.....runner at 2nd misses 3rd base...
Page 50 of the rule book
8-6-k
Third out running infraction—first sentence.

If the baserunning infraction is the third out , runs scored by the following runner(s) would not count.


Isn't that a time play versus an appeal...I'm not sure, but wouldn't three runs score here because it's a time play...the BR successfully touched 1B...you guys can chew my head off here...but is my thought way out in left field? if so, please let me know...this is a guess...feel free to jump in...

mcrowder and Tim,

In FED, just as in OBR, if the 3rd out of the half-inning is the result of an appeal of a runner missing his "forced to" base, no run scores on the play. The appeal results in a 3rd out force.

JM

John,

I may be wrong but I thought there was a case play in FED that addressed a homerun differently in this situation.


Tim.

Don't know how many of us read Rule 9 but....

NF 9-1 Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate duing action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by B-R before he touches first base: or
b. by another runner being forced out; or
c. by a preceding runner who is declared out on appeal because he failed to touch one of the bases or left too soon on caught fly ball; or
d. when the third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force-out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score; or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning, the defense may select the out which is toits advantage as in 2-20-2. credit the putout to nearest baseman.

Homeruns are not treated any differently.

NF Case 9.1.1 Situation D (inside park HR)
NF Case 9.1.1 Situation L
NF Case 9.1.1 Situation M

Oh crap. I screwed the pooch on this one.

NO runs score, as detailed so smartly after I botched this call.

Tim -- the difference comes when there's a "timing out" during a homerun (hit out of the park).

Suppose B4 hits a home run, but passes R1 (for the third out) after R3 has touched the plate.

In OBR and NCAA, R3's run counts -- it scored before the out. No other runs count -- they "scored" after the third out.

In FED, 3 runs count -- the runners were awarded home when the ball went out of play. B4's run does not count since he made the third out.

Note that if this long hit were on a field with no fences, that there is no award, so only R3's run counts.

When the third out is a foce play (as in the OP), then no runs count under any code.

Is there a difference between a force play and an appeal play. In this sitch, it's an appeal versus a force right?

The two have no relationship. You can have appeal plays that are forces, and appeal plays that are not. You can have "normal playing action" outs that are forces, and those that are not.

What instance(s) would an appeal and a force play be the same? If F8 makes a diving catch and throws the ball to F3 to double off R1 who was running on the pitch...that is an appeal play, not a force out right? Also, please help me understand how you can have a force out on an out of the park home run? I get the rule...I just don't understand how you can have a force out on a home run as in Case FED 9.1.1 L and 9.1.1 M...I'm just not seeing it...

That's an appeal play and a timing play (not a force play).

The OP in this thread (home run, R2 misses third, appealed) is an appeal play and a force out.

So what is the correct answer in the OP? R3 scores, R2,R1,BR runs do not score? or All runs score except for R2?

johnnyg08,

As I said in the 5th post on this thread, NO RUN SCORES on the play presented in the OP.

JM

Is the third out a force out? Can runs score when the third out is a force out?

If your answers are other than "Yes" and "No" respectively, then go back and reread the thread and or the rules. This specifici example might even be in OBR under "How a Run Scores" (4.06?)

That is your answer...is that the correct answer? No runs score? How is that possible? R3 certainly would've scored here prior to the appeal...is it because it's homerun versus a catch or other type of appeal?

I have read the rules a million times...I'm aware of what they say...I'm looking for somebody to please explain it to me differently from what the rules say...for some reason I'm just not getting it...I "get" the rule, I just don't understand the "why" sorry for appearing to be difficult...I just need to be able to explain to a coach when his guy hits a walk off grand slam that his team now potentially loses the game...depending on the inning. If indeed the answer is that zero runs score on this play in FED. Thanks guys

johnnyg08,

Yes, that is the correct answer, and it is fully in accordance with what the rules say. I'll admit, it can be a little confusing, so let me try to explain.

The basic principle is that no run can score on any play where the 3rd out of the half inning is made on the BR before he touches 1B or any runner who is put out on a Force.

When a runner's miss of a base is properly appealed, AND the base he missed was his "forced to" base, the out is treated as a Force Out. If such out is the 3rd out of the half inning, no run can score.

Got it?

JM

Thanks JM...is this ruling potentially why the umps misapplied the Time Play in the Cleveland/Baltimore a couple of weeks back?

johnnyg08,

To my mind, that play was much more straightforward than the sitch being discussed in this thread. For the life of me, I can't imagine how any MLB umpire, let alone a crew of four, could have screwed the pooch on that one.

I guess they're human too & we all have the occasional "brain fart" - when you get to my age, you get to call them "senior moments". ;)

Jm

When a runner's miss of a base is properly appealed, AND the base he missed was his "forced to" base, the out is treated as a Force Out. If such out is the 3rd out of the half inning, no run can score.

Now that makes sense. Thank you.

Maybe you should work with those who write the case book!!!

No, none, zip, nada, runs score in the OP.

The appeal was on a runner that was forced, he didn't touch his forced to base, so it's just like F5 had fielded a grounder and stepped on the bag.

Now, had there been only R3, R2, no force, then R3's run woulda counted, if he scored prior to the appeal.

Well coach, it's like this. When the bases are loaded there is a force play at every base and when your runners don't touch the base to which they are forced they are liable to be called out on appeal and when there are two outs a force play ends the inning and no runs score. Now if your runners could touch the base to which they are forced we would not be having this discussion and in this situation they are under no time pressure to do so so I don't really understand it either.

Now that you know the rule, it might be interesting to examine some plays in which it might not be clear whether or not the third out was a force play, especially with appeals for missed bases.

For example, there are some missed-base appeals that OBR, NCAA, and softball interpret differently in terms of whether they are force outs.