Infield Fly - F7 runs in from LF to the edge of IF
 

R1 & R2, 0 out

windy day, B1 hits a fly ball that ends up falling about 6 - 10 feet from the edge of the infield onto the outfield grass. F7 calls F6 off and makes an attempt at the catch and does not make the catch (no intentional drop)...according to my interpretation in OBR about an outfielder who sets up as an infielder versus running in on a play from the standard LF position changes the Infield Fly rule to where it wouldn't be ordinary effort if F7 had to run in significantly to make a catch as was the case here. What do you guys think? Can an outfielder running in from his position qualify for Infield Fly?

No, the question is could F6 have made the catch with ordinary effort? You have to factor in the wind, F6's positioning and the skill level of F6. Could he have made the catch with ordinary effort? If yes, infield fly. If no, nothing. F7 trying to make it on SportsCenter doesn't factor in.

That's what I'm thinking too...and it wasn't that type of play...it wouldn't have been ordinary effort for F6 in this sitch. It does fall a lot on judgement. But once you call IFF...you better have IFF...that's for sure! :-) Thanks for your post.

It makes no difference how far F7 had to run in to make the play. If you feel F6 could have made the play with ordinary effort it should be an IFF.
As CoachJM stated in another thread, the intent of the rule is to protect the offense from a cheap DP. R1 and R2 are forced to stay very close to their bag in this situation and if the ball is dropped, intentionally or not it's fairly easy to turn the DP. You don't want to be rewarding the defense for screwing up. If it's a texas league bloop then it's not IFF, but if F6 was set to make the catch and F7 was overly aggressive in calling him off then it's definitely IFF.

Don't be in a hurry to call the IFF. Make sure there is somebody there that can make the catch with ordinary effort. If I know it's a windy day I'll talk to my partner about taking even more time to make the call. As mentioned previously - there rule is there to protect the offense, not give away easy outs. What's the worst case situation if you wait too long or don't call it?

In nearly 20 years of umpiring I've never seen a problem occur because somebody waited or didn't declare a pop-up an IFF. I have, however, seen many problems because somebody called an IFF that shouldn't have been.

No F7 can't be considered but F6 is the important player here. I always judge ordinary effort as "is the infielder camped underneath it?" If he is still moving into position then I don't call it.

I agree that it is better to wait to make the call than call it to early.

But can't F7 move into the IF then the IFF rule would then apply to F7 as well?

Please shoot me,
 

Cripes and I just wanted to disappear from these threads.

I am glad to see that someone (Johnny) understands the rule.

An outfielder can be involved just as well as an infielder on an IFF. The rules DO NOT define a difference between infielders and outfielders for ANY rules.

I know you guys all know this but your answers could lead others to believe something else.

I remain,

"The Notorious Thread Deleter"

If he starts out there, yes.

But the criteria is could an infielder catch it with ordinary effort. If so, it doesn't matter who actually caught it.

Unfortunately, the rules do define a difference between infielders and outfielders, and the specific rule where it does is the definition of an IFF.

So barring an odd defensive alignment, F7 cannot be considered when determining IFF or not. Which, unsurprisingly, is what the rest of us has said.

Have you ever seen a coach bring in an outfielder to play infield when the game winning run is on 3B? The defense walks the bases loaded in order to create the IFF and a force at all bases...I have seen this several times...in this instance, yes, F7 is in the infield, he is an infielder, but he's the left fielder playing in the infield...otherwise, what is his position name since all of the other infielders have their position names? It's not really an odd defensive alignment...it's a strategical defensive formation.

Yep,
 

Major Edit

Rather than be silly and argumentative I changed this post to read:

1) Can an infield fly be "uncalled"? Can my partner say: "No it is not high enough?"

Note: I do not mean when an umpire calls an infield fly in error because he either is mistaken in outs or in the placement of the runners,

2) What is the timing for the umpire to call infield fly? Every single camp, clinic, classic, academy or umpire school all say to call the infield fly when the ball reaches the apex of flight.

I really hope no one disagrees with this universal mechanic.

So,

Play Situation:

R1 and R2 with less than two out.

Infield and outfield are playing in a normal defensive set.

The day's weather is lightly overcast with little to no wind.

The Batter hits a high pop-up directly at F4.

As a well trained umpire crew you all wait until the ball reaches its highest point and two of the crew, including you the PU, correctly call "Infield Fly if Fair!"

The ball comes down and the ball is dropped by, OH NO, the Right Fielder who has run into the infield!

Please make your ruling.

I remain,

"The Notorious Thread Deleter"

T

No I haven't seen that alignment in well over 1,000 games umpired. I imagine it does happen from time to time, but it clearly falls into the category of an odd defensive alignment.

I am not familiar with this acronym.

Oh well...anyway, thanks guys...I do appreciate all of your feedback with respect to the original scenario. I did learn a few new interpretations while reading.

I have to admit that I have not done many games but...

The defense walks the bases loaded in order to create the IFF and a force at all bases...I have seen this several times...

I have never seen a defense walk the bases loaded to create an infield fly situation. I can't even imagine why someone would do so.

If the winning run is on third base with less than two outs...my friend, you haven't watched much and probably played even less baseball...why wouldn't you do that unless you have Danny Almonte pitching in at the LL World Series when he strikes everybody out. That is a widely used strategy in many baseball games...so if you have other coaching strategies out there you tell me how you'd align your defense when your team is playing defense in the bottom of the 9th inning tied 2 - 2 and B1 leads off with a triple...

I'm sure your reasons might be good...obviously this isn't the be all and end all strategy, but a very common one.

Yeah, load up the bases, but I don't usually think of that as being done to create an IFF situation. I see it being done to create a force at home. Maybe that was what he was thinking. What I have never seen is an outfielder moved into the infield in conjunction with loading the bases. I've seen them pulled in to take away short singles but not all of the way into the infield.

So Rule 2.00 is not a rule? Or the word "infielder" doesn't have a meaning in the definition? You slander me, sir, but do not back up your position.

I'm pretty sure that you've seen this happen more than you can remember...just haven't considered that it creates the IFF rule, but just the force at all bases. I don't remember the last time IF AT ALL that I've seen where an outfielder has been positioned in the infield however.

word for word (FED)
 

Rule 2 , Sec. 19 Infield Fly
"An infield fly is a fair fly which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, (rule does not preclude outfielders from being allowed to attempt to make the catch)....."

The way I understand it if I'm reading it correctly, the infielder must be able to make the catch with ordinary effort but the outfielder may make the actual attempt.

Why hasn't this been addressed?
 

No. If an IFF has been called and meets the condition of ordinary effort, then it stays called. It can't be uncalled unless such call was erroneously made; such as above or 3) a bunt. Then, the defense may earn the DP.

Yes. If uncalled by either ump, it is a major mistake and an existing ruling or case play must be considered. IFF is in effect anyway. 1) The batter is out, 2) runners maintain any bases, and 3) the defense can't take advantage of DP opportunity.

Just trying to give clear info and avoid another English-only tongue-lashing over the semantics of an "uncalled" IFF rule.
Mechanics do change over time. I believe the mechanic is now after the ball has reached it's apex and has started on it's downward flight. I also realize how nitpicky this is being with words.

So,
I quote, "As a well trained umpire crew you all wait until the ball reaches its highest point and two of the crew, including you the PU, correctly call "Infield Fly if Fair!"

We, my partner and I, have nothing else to rule on unless a play follows or time is requested. I suppose one of us can kindly remind everyone again that the batter is out.

I have NEVER seen the defense walk 2 batters intentionally to load the bases after a leadoff batter hit a triple in the bottom of 9th of a tie game. The normal strategy is to pull the infield and outfield in to hopefully prevent the runner from advancing from 3B on a ground ball or shallow fly ball. If I got an out on the next batter without the runner advancing I might walk the next batter, keep the corners in and move F4 and F6 back to normal to hopefully get a DP. Or, I might leave the infielders in, depending on the batter coming up, what position in the batting order, and what he has done at bat today. Outfielders would still be in because a deep fly ball wins the game.

I'm certainly not going to walk the number 8 man and the number 9 man to load the bases with none out for the top of the order. And if Danny Almonte is pitching and striking everybody out how did the batter hit a triple? Geez..

I'm sure your reasons might be good...obviously this isn't the be all and end all strategy, but a very common one.

that's why we play the game...different coaches, different strategies, different levels of baseball. and DG, while I have seen what I describe work, I have also seen it fail...much like you scenario...I can find a million reasons why your strategy is good too...but like any plan in baseball...it doesn't work every time.

In the Almonte case...maybe it was a dropped 3rd strike followed by two passed balls....there R3 no outs. :-)

I think all the confusion stems from whether an outfielder's ability to catch the ball with ordinary effort is a factor in determining an IFF. It is not. Only an infielder's ability to catch the ball with ordinary effort is used as criteria for calling IFF. I think Johnny was asking if F7 comes running in, does he qualify for an IFF rule. The answer is NO. He can certainly catch the ball, but to be an IFF, an infielder must be able to catch the ball with ordinary effort. He can always give way to an outfielder calling him off, if he thinks the outfielder has a better angle on the ball.

It's not jibber or jabber
 

This thread can't last forever. Forget the people in the OP then, start with R1 and R2, a towering fly ball within the "outskirts" of the infield and less than 2 outs. IFF, if Fair. As Mr. Carl Childress stated, "The situation determines the out."

Edited to delete: No one will argue whether jibber or jabber missed the catch.

Edited to add: The umpires will not care whether jibber or jabber missed the catch. The play will not be "uncalled" for either team.

These words brought to you courtesy of the King of Jibber Jabber himself!:)

Thank you. Amidst an incredible level of noise (I think it's called WOBW) and muddled writing, you have finally correctly and concisely answered the frickin' question.

Yes, F7 can move into the IF. Yes, the IFF rule would then apply to F7.

Please Read UP
 

There is no outfielder fly rule. There is no infielder fly rule.
It doen't matter who on the defense does what.

The batter runner is out because there is an INFIELD FLY rule, caught or not, in effect.
This protects the runner(s) from running into an easy double or triple play.
The "force to vacate" from an uncaught infield fly is removed by rule.
The runners may keep their bases or advance at their own risk.
The rule protects the offense, not the defense.