Infield Fly Rule - Ball Drops
 

Gentlemen (and ladies),

I had a play the other night that didn't happen but I thought what if it did happen and had questions.

We had runners on first and second and a pop up in the infield while the infield fly rule was in effect. There was some confusion between the fielders and the ball almost dropped to the ground. If it would have dropped, the batter is out but are the runners still safe at first and second if they stay there since they are not being forced to run due to the batter being out? Or do they have to try to advance if it isn't a deliberate drop?

My thoughts were that they could remain on their bases and not have to run.

Thanks

ballingbob,

Your thoughts were correct. The whole purpose of the IFF is to protect the offense from a "cheap" DP - because the batter is out, all forces are removed, so the runners are never required to leave their TOP base, whether the ball is caught or not.

It is always their option to leave the base, and if they do, it is the same as any other fair fly; if caught, they are under a retouch obligation, if not, they are not.

JM

You are correct. When infield fly is called, the force is off, and the runners do not have to run.

There is another IFF rule thread down the page you may be interested in looking regarding some of the other subtleties of the rule.

Thanks Coach

Thanks Two Bits, I just noticed it and read it and thought I'd get reamed out like that guy did for not going to the book first. I was just reading through some of the posts and thought I'd post this one. These are very informative.

Also, remember that the Intentional Drop rule is moot in Infield Fly situations. This is because the Infield Fly Rule takes precedence; that is, IT is invoked first, rendering the Intentional Drop moot. Of course, there's an exception to this exception: the Intentional Drop can still be invoked with runners on first and second or bases loaded if an infielder intentionally drops a line drive or bunted ball, because the Infield Fly isn't declared in such situations.

Confusing enough? ;)

Been a crazy year for me so far...had some calls I've never had before...
1. Intentional Drop
2. Batter out of batters box (bunt attempt w/ one foot out of the box just above the apex of home plate) never thought I'd call it, but it was so obvious, I had to call it last night. He even got away w/ it the first attempt because I wasn't 100% the 1st time.

I'm sure there will be more weird stuff this season.

Note: Umpires...please never, never call an infield fly on a bunt attempt!

There's nothing wrong here...unless the foot was touching the ground outside the box or the plate... he should have "gotten away" with it the second time also :eek:

He "squared around," planting his right foot, outside of the box.

I finally saw a batter make contact with the ball while he had a foot, on the ground, completely out of the box. Problem was...I was the BU.

His team is a good bet to move on to state this year so I had a word with the assistant coach at first and suggested that they might run into a plate ump along the way who was more concerned with feet than the pitch. He thanked me for the heads-up. Next time the kid came up, he had moved back in the box about a foot.

Now that's just good preventive umpiring and a coach smart enough to listen.

nahhh. He was the assistant coach. I figured the head coach must have over heard us.:D

And then what?......Make contact with the ball?.......

Try this...right after your meeting at the plate....GET RID OF THE INSIDE LINES...now what do you do?

Let'm play ball.....

griff

Sometimes you don't know where the batter's box is, but you do know where it isn't.

Indeed. :)

I called abatter out for this for this first time last week.

I saw him set up in the front of the box but didn't pay much attention to it. His stride took him about a foot in front of the box while a couple of balls missed badly low. This made me notice where his foot was. Then he swung and missed at the next two pitches, still way in front of the box. I made up my mind that I was calling him out if he made contact.

Next pitch he grounded to third and I called him out.

Of course coach argued but I showed him the footprint and he just *****ed that it wasn't a good baseball call. I told him it is a baseball rule so I made the call.

Question, how much should we let the batter get away with? I know that if any part of his foot is on the line he is good but how much past that do you guys go? In this case I felt it was way too far to let it go.

Bases loaded and 1 out.

Batter hits pop near first base.

Infield fly is invoked.

Runner on third comes home and scores before
batter runner interferes with first baseman making the catch, causing ball to drop safely in fair ground,

1. Does the run count? If not, why not?
2. If there was no runner on second and the same set of circumstances, would the run count? If not, why not?

Possible triple play
 

1. No, failure to retouch
2. No, see 1.

Infield fly batter out, I on B/R prevents DP on R1 for 2nd out, and TP on R3 for 3rd out.

Please quote the rule for me in baseball that would not allow a run that scored before any interference?

There is no leaving early penalty if a fly ball is not caught, infield fly rule or not.
No out can be recorded in either circumstance for that, regardless of the interference.

So the question is does the interference negate the run? What rule in baseball covers that?

jimpiano,

That would be the "Offensive Interference" rule(s).

The ball is dead, runners return to their TOP base.

Check Rule 2.0. You should find it somewhere between Ignorance and Knowledge.

JM

Thank you Steven, we are making progress on this rule.


So in case number two, the run would score?

Thanks for your input.
I can see why you are a coach and not an umpire.

Jimbo,

De nada.

You didn't read the rule, did you?

If it's too much trouble, I believe the text most relevant to your question is:

Quote:

Rule 2.00 (Interference) Comment: In the event the batter-runner has not reached first base, all runners shall return to the base last occupied at the time of the pitch.

The run does not score.

JM

Wow, you can recite a rule.

Was that so hard?

Thanks.


Trying to rewrite a rule in softball that allows the run to score

jimpiano,

Well, why didn't you say so?

If I'm reading you correctly, you think the run should score in at least one of the two sitches you posed, possibly both. Why would you think that?

JM

You want rules?
 

Take your pick ...

FED:8-4-2g
NCAA: 8-5-e
OBR: 7.09(f)

I think I got them right.
(Basic assumption: Since the runner from 3rd has already crossed the plate, he is in jeopardy of being doubled off third after the catch).

I don't think a run should score in either case since it would have the offensive team profit from it's violation of the rules.

But in ASA Softball in scenario number two the run would count since the interference occured after the runner had crossed the plate.

In scenario number one the umpire could prevent the run by ruling that the interference happened when the batter, out by IFF Rule, kept running, thus moving up the actual interference violation, and also getting a double play.

As I said , the rule as written in ASA regarding intererference, allows a runner to score even if the batter/runner does not reach first base and commits interference.

It needs to be changed to something like the rule in baseball.

That was all I was after.

Thank you

Wow. That's just horrible.

So ... you require runners to retouch their bases on uncaught fly balls? Even worse ... you call them out and nullify their runs even if the defense doesn't appeal.

Your ANSWER may be right, but your reasoning is 100% incorrect.

As much as I'm normally the first one to jump all over Jim when he screws up here ... he's right. ASA softball's rules have the "runner closest to home" called out in this sitch. The runner who has scored is no longer a runner.

And he's right that the rule needs to be rewritten, as I don't believe that ANY of us think that the intent of the rulesmakers was to allow a run in this sitch.

There's a Catch
 

Original sitch: Already 1 out, DP is fine.

Would TP be possible? Example: F3 camped below ordinary fly near 1B. Catches ball, steps on 1B to double up R1 and end the inning, and then throws to F5 to to erase run with an apparent 4th out appeal. Now add B/R, knowing R1, R2 and R3 are a sitting ducks on the basepath, interefering with F3 to prevent F3 from catching fly ball. Triple play?

Cant have a triple play under that situation.

Soft Question
 

R3, ground ball to F5, throw to F3, no play on R3 running on contact.
Batter-runner deliberately knocks the ball from F3's glove during tag attempt.
The runner on 3B scores before the play at first base.
ASA Ruling?

BR out. There was no double play here to be prevented - don't see how any ruleset could have an additional out.

[QUOTE=johnnyg08]Been a crazy year for me so far...had some calls I've never had before...
1. Intentional Drop
2. Batter out of batters box (bunt attempt w/ one foot out of the box just above the apex of home plate) never thought I'd call it, but it was so obvious, I had to call it last night. He even got away w/ it the first attempt because I wasn't 100% the 1st time.

I'm sure there will be more weird stuff this season.

Note: Umpires...please never, never call an infield fly on a bunt attempt![/QUOTE

I had an interesting one last night too. A batter missed first base and the ball was thrown into deadball territory. I award the batter second base (he still does not touch first base). The coach was yelling to initiate an appeal when the ball was live. I put the ball back in play, and the right handed pitcher asks for an appeal and throws over without stepping off the rubber.

Why is the appeal nullified? It's perfectly legal. If you're posting because the ball was thrown out of play, it sounds like that occurred during continuous action. The ball is made live again, then the appeal is allowed. If you're posting that it's nullified because the pitcher threw from the rubber, that's also legal because he's making an appeal.

Ifr
 

Is the IFR ever in effect with a runner on first with only 1 out or less? Please advise

Runner on 1B only? No.