Overrun First on BOB
 

I know this has been asked many times already and in OBR the batter/runner is entitled to overrun first without liability to be put on, as long as no attempt for second.

Had the following question on umpire quiz with OBR rules:

The leadoff man walks. After ball four, the catcher returns the ball to the pitcher who starts walking around the mound in disgust. Meanwhile the runner reaches first and then walks off the base a few steps, bends to pull up his socks. The pitcher then fires to the first baseman who tags the runner. Is the runner out?

I said no, the answer key said yes and the clinician said the BOB was an award so that meant that the runner was entitled to first and nothing more.

As indicated earlier, I've found many earlier threads which indicate the runner is save but would like rule references to send to the clinician.

Thanks

THere's a difference between "overruning a base" and "stepping (or walking) off".

I agree with you and the answer in this case is probably the runner is out.

However, what is the response to the base award rather then a hit. i.e. since the BOB is an award the BR cannot run through first without liability of being put out.

Indeed; but on an overrun of first stemming from a walk... ;)

I ought to make this the next one in my "You Make the Call" column, Bob, because this little scenario has drawn conflicting rulings for quite some time. I don't have Evans's Annotated Rules in front of me, but IIRC, he says one thing while the OBR interp. says another. Now I've forced myself to research this for the umpteenth time. :D

In OBR, the BR on a BOB may over-run first and return immediately without liability. He/She must make an attempt to advance to second in order to be putout. The BR can turn left, right, or run straight through the bag, it makes no difference, provided they make NO attempt to advance.

In FED, there is no such protection, and can be put out if they overrun first on a BOB.

In OBR, the BR on a BOB may over-run first and return immediately without liability. He/She must make an attempt to advance to second in order to be putout. The BR can turn left, right, or run straight through the bag, it makes no difference, provided they make NO attempt to advance.

In FED, there is no such protection, and can be put out if they overrun first on a BOB.

True. But in OBR, if the BR gets a BOB, trots down to 1B, stops, and then steps past the bag, he hasn't overrun. He has simply walked off the bag and is liable to be tagged out. I admit that if he kept walking past the bag and then returned, I'd consider that an "overrun" (or an "overwalk"). It's a HTBT. But the BR has no automatic protection simply because his physical position is somewhere down the 1B line.

FYI, under all levels of Williamsport Baseball, a batter who overruns first on a walk is out if tagged. (Andy Konyar explanation to me on a phone call many moons ago.)

What is the response to the clinician's answer that since a BOB is a base award it is treated differently than a base hit and the runner is protected only up to the base and nothing further? Remembering it is OBR rules.

Official MLB interpretation, and the one I use:

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)

As I recall, Evans say's he is out. Use 6.08A

.....If in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

As I said, that was the JEA and MLB position prior to 2001. The JEA has not been updated and MLBUM no longer agrees with that interpretation. There is no bigger fan of Jim than me, but his opinion in this matter no longer is accepted by MLB.

Neither portion of your quote is applicable to a BOB batter/runner simply touching and overrunning first and not attempting to advance.

In Little ball, the standard play is to throw the ball to the F3 on a BOB. If the BR steps off 1b, or over runs 1b, the F3 tags him. Now, knowing the ball is in the F3's glove should clue the BR in to stay on the bag. In this situation, I don't have an out, the BR was not attempting to advance.

However, if he over runs 1b and just stands off the base, adjusting himself, I do have an out if he is tagged. He didn't return immediately to 1b after over running it.

UMP25, it must have been many moons ago because it sure is OK to overrun 1B on a walk now, as long as the runner returns immediately. Even says so in the 2007 R.I.M. ( I know that not everyone has a copy, I just got lucky). :)

That's flat out wrong. The LL case book "The Right Call" says it's OK.

Don't confuse stepping off and overrunnung.

And if he adjusts himself more than three times, he's playing with it.:)

He's probably the F1 who has been slobbering all over the ball , too.

As of O6 this was how he was teaching it. If you have another source, could you send me a link or send me in the direction that I can read this. Nothing personnal but I would like to be able to read and see it for myself not just hear it.

San Diego Steve quoted the MLB Umpire Manual.

If you have a copy of the current J/R it's in there too.

Well there ya go. My J/R is several years old and has it if he feints toward second, he's out. As for the MLBUM... I'd love to have one, how can I get my hands on one? That's the million dollar question.

An overrun and a feint to second are two different animals.

He's still out of he feints then gets tagged while off the base.

I'm not. Don't assume you know what I'm saying, because you don't.
I stated a fact: Andy Konyar himself told me that a batter-runner cannot overrun first base on a walk. If he does and is tagged, he's out.

I also stated that Andy told me this a while ago. I don't work Little League, so I wouldn't doubt the official ruling has changed. My statement was, indeed, then correct.

Apology accepted.

You aren't getting one because all I said (and SargeE7 too) was that your statement that you couldn't overrun on a walk was wrong. We stated where it was in writing from LL.

I also know who first showed me the ruling and when - it was in 1998 - and he showed me because I argued the "safe" call on an walk-overrun.

What part of the interpretation changed do you not understand? My statement was, in fact, correct. The ruling today is different.

I'm looking for the change in the OBR rulling. In the mean time, just to add to the debate...FED...8-2-7 runner does not have that right to over run on a base on balls award.

It's not in the rule, it's in the interpretation. And that can be found in the MLBUM. Tell me, when you look at the rule, does it say that a walked batter cannot overrun first?

and you want how much for you MLBUM? :D

Actually the way it was presented to me was because the BR was awarded the base, there is no force put out. Therefore should he over run the base he is not protected as he is protected to the base because of the base on ball award. As for the J/R manual, it states if he feints, a feint being as much as a step toward second base. And yes, a step with intent. Something you don't see in higher levels of the game. That's usually in the black and blue leagues with poor coaching and excited kids. J/R also states you can be tagged out by being off the bag on the home plate side of the bag, dusting off. My OBR is not the latest version. I've been reading off the MLB site and haven't found anything that directly changes the above ruling. That doesn't mean it isn't changed. Which is why were discussing it. I think I have a line on an MLBUM, so that could change. I don't disagree with it, I just have to see it, read it, digest it, and put it in play.