Critique Please - Topic 1: Plate Stance
 

Gentlemen,

I have never seen what I look like while umpiring, so I got someone to come to a game I was working yesterday and take some photos. It was very interesting to me to see the pix. I learned some things about what I was doing - that I had thought I was doing differently.

I've already formed some opinions from looking at the photos about some things I need to work on & some things I think I'm doing OK on.

I thought I would solicit feedback from the members of this forum, because I'm sure there are additional things that you will notice that I have not.

So, let 'er rip; feel free to be brutally honest. My feelings aren't hurt very easily and I'm just interested in improving.

I have posted 6 photos, taken from different angles, of me working the plate at the following link:

http://www.putfile.com/coachjm/images/101509

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116123081.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116123032.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116122957.jpg

The game is a 14U Travel game and I am working solo. My intent is to be conforming to the "heel-toe-heel-toe" stance I was taught at the Desert Classic.

These three are a sequence of 3 shots on the same pitch:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116122823.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116122899.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11116122939.jpg

If this proves interesting to the members, I will post some additional photos showing some different aspects of the game so you can all have some fun telling me what I'm doing wrong (;) ) and maybe we can all learn something.

JM

You may have learned heel toe/heel toe foot positioning at the Desert Classic, but you didn't learn this stance there.

That said....

In picture 2 your feet seem to heel/heel.

In pictures 4,5,6 you seem to have your slot foot back farther than the other foot. It's as if you were setting up for RH batter instead of the LH batter.

All put together, it seems that your stance is a "tweener." Not a standard heel/toe slot as Jim teaches it, and not a Gerry Davis. Something in between.

Suggestions: Which ever stance you're trying for, get more in the slot and spread your feet farther apart.

Coach JM,

If I remember right, the three determining factors on your position in the slot with a stance (heel-toe in this case) are width of stance, degree of squat, amount of lean. It looks to me that you need to widen your base width for starters. This was one of the best recommendations I got when I went to the Florida Classic in 2001. It takes a tremendous amount of pressure off your knees and lets your hamstrings and quads do the work.

I think if you widen out a little, you'll get better head height (one shot looks like you are working a little high) and it will minimize fatigue.

I am having to force myself to widen out more this year as well (Note: I am not advocating the double wide or GD stance width).

You stance is personal. If you can see the ball well and you can maintain a similar head position, then that is what you want to achieve in my opinion. I cannot tell anything big by these pictures other than it looks like you might be a little high and do not look as locked in.

Having said that most umpires I know have changed their stances multiple times over their careers. Partly because they did something they were completely comfortable when they started, but someone told them to do it so that is what they did.

I used what I would call a modified Gerry Davis stance and I have been much happier than what I used to do. This is probably my 4th stance over my 10+ years.

Peace

John, your stance isn't bad, although like mentioned previously, it doesn't look heel-toe. It seems to me that you are very close to using the GD, so I would recommend just widening out your stance a bit and voila, you have it.

I would also recommend a more aggressive slot positioning. You can move about 2 or 3 inches further into the slot, which actually opens up your view of the outside corner.

I would echo the comment that you're flirting with the Gerry Davis stance, so why not just go for it. Widen out, which will bring your head down a skotch which is all you need there, and then lock in with hands on knees. Also, in the very last picture the pitcher is well into his windup before you've dropped into your set position, so I would tend to agree with that photo's title ("late set.")

Not a stance comment, but I would buy some plate pants if I were you.

Etn, give him a chance. Afterall he is a 'convert' from the coaching ranks. At least he's not sitting on a bucket, spitting seeds.

John, you need to change your ID to BlueJM....

As already mentioned your hell toe is off. Your slot foot should be to the catchers heel line. You look like your farther back for the slot stance. I agree with the others you look closer to GD. (Pics one and two). I also agree with your head height. Just a little tall. You can widen your stance up a little as already mentioned also. I like that your shoulders look square to the pitcher and level, good job. In pics 4 and 5 it does appear you have your feet backward. Your right foot should be up in the slot. In 6, I also agree, you should already be set or at least on your way down. That way your set at the time of the release of the ball. By setting a little earlier, you will have an easier time in tracking the ball, hence proper use of eyes. I have no problem with your arm location. I also use a similar position with my hands. I no longer bring my slot arm across my abdomen. I got tired of getting hit in the wrist and elbow. Just remember to lock in with your non-slot arm.

Nice shinguards!! ;)

minor suggestions
 

I agree with Dave. Good start, but go ahead and widen up a bit. That will drop the head down which is better.

Also, as Garth suggested move toward the slot and you will have a crstal clear view of the outside corner. (also you will avoid being hit as much being in the slot vs right behind F2)

One last thing, when you widen and drop the head. also move back a step which will help a lot.

Experiment is the only way, try a couple of innings doing something different and see how it works. Best of luck sounds like you are having fun which is what its all about!

Thanks
David

Gentlemen,

Thanks to each of you for your constructive criticism (and the nice compliment on the shins, Tanner. :rolleyes: )

When I saw the pictures, I was very surprised at my head height. I thought I had been getting my head much lower than I actually am. A couple of you mentioned working wider, which is exactly what I thought. I'm pretty comfortable with my "squat and lean" adjustments, and I was also surprised to see how far apart my feet were when I set (I thought I was getting "wider" than I actually am).

A number of you mentioned getting more in the slot. I believe I'm generally lining up in the slot reasonably well (though the previous pix wouldn't indicate that), and I think these pix are more typical of my slot alignment:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11222182711.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11222182793.jpg http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11222182754.jpg

If these don't look right in reference to the slot, please let me know.

The Red Team catcher had some kind of quirky habits, one of which was regularly setting up in the slot. I have been told that if you get squeezed out of the slot by the catcher and/or batter, you should adjust by moving "up and back" in order to see the entire strike zone. He also liked to take a little "hop" forward as the pitcher released the ball. Anyway, I was a little uncomfortable adjusting to this catcher, and I may have been losing some discipline with my stance as a result.

From what I could tell from the pictures, my stance was generally better with the Green Team catcher than with the Red. This picture is more in line with what I'm working towards with my stance, though the angle and "foreshortening" may make it look better than it would from a different angle.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11222182757.jpg

When I saw the 1st picture in the series of 3 on the same pitch imbedded in my first post, I had a kind of WTF moment. As in, WTF are you doing still standing up when the pitcher has started his delivery?!?!

Then I realized that the pitcher was pitching from Set and had runners on 1st and 3rd. I was waiting until he was past a pick-off to 3B and committed to pitch before setting. I thought I had been taught this, but can't find it in any of my books or notes. So maybe I just made it up. I felt (perhaps erroneously) that I was still able to get set before he released the ball and didn't feel like I was having any difficulty tracking the pitches.

So, is this wrong? At what point do you set to call the pitch when there's a possibility of a pick off and a pitcher pitching from set? :confused:

To etn_ump. I didn't much care for the way they looked either. They're alledgedly Combo pants. Now I understand why Tim C advised against getting them. I got them as a compromise last year when I was acquiring all my "umpire stuff". My wife/CFO was a little surprised at how much my new hobby was costing. I'll be ordering a pair of real Plate Pants as soon as I figure out which pair I want to get.

Thanks all.

JM

JM, my observations:

1) Your "GD" stance looks kinda akward. If i were you, i would start out with the standard box stance, then work up to the more advanced GD stance.

2) Your feet should be a little wider as others have said. This will really help you get lower, which brings me to...

3) You need to get your head lower. Your chin should be at the top of the catcher's head. This is probably caused by your ba$tardized GD stance with the arms locked.

After the hashing- good thing i spotted:

First photo the ball is in the dirt and it looks like you're rock steady. Good job not flinching!

But overall i would reccommend scrapping the GD stance for now and go to the good ol fashioned box stance.

PS- change the screen name :D

JM:

Before we go any further, are you attempting a GD stance?

Garth,

Not by intention. I don't really know what the GD system is. I've read some about it & seen it used.

I'm just trying to do what I was taught in Arizona. When I saw the pictures, even I could tell I wasn't doing it quite right.

I'm a little puzzled about why so many different people have made comments regarding the GD system after seeing the pix. I'm a little higher than I'd like to be, and farther away from the catcher than I thought I was. But not to the extent of the GD system. And my stance certainly isn't wide enough to conform to GD.

JM

What you are using is very close to what I like to use.

I call a variation of the GD, Ive seen a couple of MLB guys using it and I liked their zones.

so I tried it through a summer and loved it.

In the slot, but a wide stance (gets me lower), and at least an arms length or more behind F2.

Great view of all the pitches, and as you stated, when i get blocked by F2 I can always just go a little higher in the stance!

Keep up the good work, its always a work in progress.

Thanks
David

Coach,

I think (but not positive) that you're getting a lot of comments about the GD stance because both of your hands are on your legs and your head is pretty high. Most (but not all) guys working the heel/toe (which we called the "box" at the Brinkman school...but I know that others consider the box to be setting up directly behind the catcher which was used way back when) don't place both arms on their legs. Also, most heel/toe guys have a lower head height than guys using the GD (and they get lower than where you are). Your chin should be at the same height as the top of the catcher's helmet.

Here is a picture of a guy in a heel/toe with good head height (also notice how he's resting his arms to allow him to get that low):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/openisf...7594187042199/

Good luck!

Lawup, that is a good representation of the 'box'. The problems I see with the traditional approach vs the GD is:

1) Consistant head height
2) Head movement
3) Rock solid 'lock in'
4) Weak slot alignment

The GD cures these, and it is by far the easiest to teach, learn and use on a day to day basis. In my opinion, you call strikes that you can't even see in the other plate stances.

John, you are just about 2 steps away from using the GD. Why not go for it ??

People are commenting on the GD stance because of the height of your stance, the distance from the catcher and your hand position. None of these are what Jim taught when I went to Arizona.

If you are trying to recreate your DC plate stance, get your cage viedo out. I'm sure you'll see your legs were spread wider, the slot foot was ahead of the back foot, you were lower through both a wider stance and more "sitting" (not with any more lean), you were a bit closer to the catcher and you did not have your slot hand on your knee.

Wow. I have never heard these issues blamed on a hee/toe stance before. Sound more like inexperience than anything inherent with a stance.

I've gone back from GD to hee/toe...actually heel/instep as the Evans' instructors permitted on the last day...and have never been as solid behind the plate. I use a good lock-in with my non slot hand, my alignment in the slot does not vary, even with catchers who move out, I can see the outside corner very well without moving my head and by using the three steps to get into my stance, my head height does not vary during a game.

If you experience these problems with heel/toe, I'd suggest it has little to do with the stance itself and much to do with the execution.

Garth, you are correct when you state that these problems are evidence of inexperience rather then related to a particular plate stance. I was not blaming the H/T for these problems, just stating from my observations, the problems that do occur frequently for those who do not use the GD.

While number 4 in my list can't be directly cured by the GD, the other 3 certainly are. I began teaching the GD when I was the UIC of my association and in charge of training very young and very inexperieced umpires. They were taught the H/T and many just didn't grasp it. They didn't have the intense instruction that the DC or other professional camps give.

Those problems can arise in any stance. GD, by itself, cures nothing. I've seen worse in some misusing the GD stance.

The key is proper instruction and proper execution of either stance. If you feel more comfortable teaching the GD stance, that's fine.

JM-

Go with slot arm across your waist/stomach and your other hand tucked to the side grabbing the back/side of your knee.