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scottbono Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:12pm
Legal or Illegal Pitch?
 
R3 is attempting to steal home;the pitcher steps off the rubber to throw home. The catcher reaches towards the ball and the batter swings at which he hits the catcher. Dead ball: Illegal Pitch, Award BR first and return R3?

mcrowder Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbono
R3 is attempting to steal home;the pitcher steps off the rubber to throw home. The catcher reaches towards the ball and the batter swings at which he hits the catcher. Dead ball: Illegal Pitch, Award BR first and return R3?
Where do I start....

Not illegal pitch. (Not a pitch at all - a throw from a fielder to another fielder).

What do you call it when an offensive player hinders the defensive player's ability to catch a thrown ball?

Rich Ives Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbono
R3 is attempting to steal home;the pitcher steps off the rubber to throw home. The catcher reaches towards the ball and the batter swings at which he hits the catcher. Dead ball: Illegal Pitch, Award BR first and return R3?

Caution.

If he legally stepped off it MAY br OK.

But if his motion makes it look like a pitch he may have violated

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

BigGuy Tue Apr 10, 2007 03:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
Caution.

If he legally stepped off it MAY br OK.

But if his motion makes it look like a pitch he may have violated

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

Don't read more into the post than what is written. As soon as F1 removes his foot from the rubber, he becomes a fielder and the throw home becomes a legitimate play at HP on R3. The only ruling in this situation is interference on the part of the batter.

Depending on the number of outs either batter or runner are out.

Rich Ives Tue Apr 10, 2007 03:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy
Don't read more into the post than what is written. As soon as F1 removes his foot from the rubber, he becomes a fielder and the throw home becomes a legitimate play at HP on R3. The only ruling in this situation is interference on the part of the batter.

Depending on the number of outs either batter or runner are out.

So we just ignore 8.05(g)?

Where does it say we should do that?

It actually got called a balk against Ramiro Mendoza (Red Sox) in a game against the Yankees. He stepped back then went through his normal from-set motion.

LMan Tue Apr 10, 2007 03:40pm
Then he deserved the balk. Who (among sentient beings) disengages legally, then does a wind-up before he tries to cut down a runner at the plate?

scarolinablue Tue Apr 10, 2007 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy
Don't read more into the post than what is written. As soon as F1 removes his foot from the rubber, he becomes a fielder and the throw home becomes a legitimate play at HP on R3. The only ruling in this situation is interference on the part of the batter.

Depending on the number of outs either batter or runner are out.
I disagree. If the motion by the pitcher resembles his normal pitching motion, even if he's stepped off the rubber, he could be called for a balk. If he was in the set position, stepped off, and then lifted his non-pivot foot similar to his normal delivery, this could confuse the batter, who would then be justified in swinging at the "pitch".

Otherwise, as you've said above...interference on the batter. Guess you'd HTBT in the OP sitch.

GarthB Tue Apr 10, 2007 04:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue
I disagree. If the motion by the pitcher resembles his normal pitching motion, even if he's stepped off the rubber, he could be called for a balk. If he was in the set position, stepped off, and then lifted his non-pivot foot similar to his normal delivery, this could confuse the batter, who would then be justified in swinging at the "pitch".

Otherwise, as you've said above...interference on the batter. Guess you'd HTBT in the OP sitch.
I'll have to support Bigguy here. Reading the OP as written, and without making something out of it that it isn't, we see that the pitcher stepped off and threw the ball home. He didn't pitch it. There is a difference between a throw and a pitch and unless the original poster changes his story, this not a balk.

Yes, Rich, unless the poster tell us that the pitcher threw in a manner that resembled his pitching delivery, we ignore 8.05 (g). It doesn't come into play.

Rich Ives Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
I'll have to support Bigguy here. Reading the OP as written, and without making something out of it that it isn't, we see that the pitcher stepped off and threw the ball home. He didn't pitch it. There is a difference between a throw and a pitch and unless the original poster changes his story, this not a balk.

Yes, Rich, unless the poster tell us that the pitcher threw in a manner that resembled his pitching delivery, we ignore 8.05 (g). It doesn't come into play.
Darn guys, all I said was that there might be a condition when it was a balk. Shouldn't people be aware of that? Or would you rather explain it to some angry coach that read here that it wasn't?


BTW Garth, your simple "Why?" post seems to have blocked follow up posts, at least on my computer.

UmpJM Tue Apr 10, 2007 08:52pm
Rich,

You are not the only one. Actually people can still make additional posts, and they're there - you (I) just can't see them.

I've sent Garth a PM with a suggested resolution. I believe he was working a game this afternoon, so it may be awhile before he's able to fix it.

JM

FTVMartin Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:10pm
If he stepped off it is not a pitch. I would not call the balk because he is now infielder in the act of making a play on the runner. I would assum this means he hurried to make the throw home and did not wind up. If that is the case then you may get away with calling the balk but be ready for both coaches to come out.

As long as the pitcher clearly stepped off, then you have a batter interfering with a thrown ball. BR is out and R3 goes back to third.

scottbono Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:14pm
Agree w/ BigGuy
 
A.The pitcher threw the ball home w/out a normal delivery towards the plate.
B. There was one out w/runner on second.
The UIC said that he threw home and it was consider a illegal pitch that the batter has the right to hit like a balk pitch. Award BR first and return R3.
I called int on the batter. F1 is now consider a fielder making a play @home.

newump Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:35pm
with none or one out, isn't R3 out? w/ 2outs the batter is out for the 3rd out. correct?

bossman72 Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
with none or one out, isn't R3 out? w/ 2outs the batter is out for the 3rd out. correct?
you got it newb!

GarthB Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Something fishy about a pitcher stepping off and then throwing home.

*The pitcher's status may legally change to fielder, but does the batter's status change to observer?

*I would like to see a rule or case play that states the batter must recognize the pitcher as a fielder and that any attempt he makes to hit the ball shall be ruled interference.

*By design, any throw home from the mound simulates a pitch.

*If the pitcher threw home while disengaged from the rubber, illegal pitch, BALK.

*JMHO until I see something realistic, like perhaps, ONE example where this situation occurred in a real ballgame.
Are you really serious about this? Is this really the first time you've heard of any of this?

LMan Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Something fishy about a pitcher stepping off and then throwing home.
Are you going to take away a hit if the catcher isn't touched?
Are we then going to call balk?

The pitcher's status may legally change to fielder, but does the batter's status change to observer?
I would like to see a rule or case play that states the batter must recognize the pitcher as a fielder and that any attempt he makes to hit the ball shall be ruled interference.
Not the way the game is supposed to be played.

By design, any throw home from the mound simulates a pitch.
The pitcher can legally throw to any other base and the batter can't do a thing.
If the pitcher threw home while disengaged from the rubber, illegal pitch, BALK.
JMHO until I see something realistic, like perhaps, ONE example where this situation occurred in a real ballgame.
Please hurry, I can't wait for this investigation to conclude.
Wow. ....................

GarthB Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Why not balk, award R3 home and allow batter to resume with previous count?
I'd love to spend the time answering all this, with references, but to be honest, a little while I go, the missus and I went out into the hot tub with an excellent bottle of Syrah and the last thing I want to do right now is spend what little concentration skills I have left on supplying you with information you could find yourself.

Good night.

SanDiegoSteve Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Yeah, this is the first time I ever heard of a pitcher stepping off and delivering a "throw" before a runner stole home.
YGBSM. . .

GarthB Wed Apr 11, 2007 09:30am
SAUmp wrote: "Yeah, this is the first time I ever heard of a pitcher stepping off and delivering a "throw" before a runner stole home."

Another reason to invest in Evans' balk video. He demonstrates in detail when this move is legal and when it is a balk.

BigGuy Wed Apr 11, 2007 09:43am
Smart Pitcher
 
It's not too often that the pitcher would have the presence of mind to step off before throwing. Kudos to him. The catcher got lucky in that the batter obviously didn't hit him too hard with the bat otherwise it could have been a disaster - broken bones, cracked skull, etc.

The end result is what the defense wanted - an out... unconventional but nevertheless an out.


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