Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag
 

What is the procedure when: you're pu and on a infield hit, on the throw to first, the first baseman is pulled off the bag and the bu calls him out? You saw it and the off. coach in the coaches box saw it. How do you make right and not make bu look bad.

Our job is to get up to the 45 so that we see things like this and can help when asked. If the offense is smart enough to come out and convince the BU to ask for help, then you can share it. It is important not to convey info to the 1st base coach with your body language.

You don't do anything unless asked by your partner. It's his call and if he needs help he'll ask

You turn around and head back to the plate unless the BU wants your help.

The BU should be getting in position and making this call himself.

Dispite what is written here by some umpires on the board who are always in perfect postion to see every play and never miss a call it does happen to some of us.

In some situations a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.

If I'm working bases I'll ask my PU, in our pre-game, to alert me if he sees a pulled foot. He doesn't need to wait for me to come to him. Since the objective is to always get the call right I will go for help if I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'm 99% sure but I'll still go for help if asked.

Some partners workout signals to one another when they have additional information. Be careful with signals because coaches look for things like that and it can be embarrassing when the coach yells, "Go for help, your partner is signaling you" (never happened to me of course).

Fist covering heart signals "I have a call if you need it".
If he points to me, I'll come over to him and tell him what I saw.
If he ignores it, play on.
His call start to finish.

Great point...it is our job as a "crew" to get the calls right, this is not a judgement call he either pulled his foot or he didn't. If this happen in basketball or football and we got together and offered information they would say that is great crew communication, why is it different is baseball? Are umpires just bull headed?

Yep, some of the 'old timers' are.

I don't know if I really care for it to be either way, but I know my wife does, she hates baseball and the way it allows men to act.

The difference between baseball and every other sports is that it is the only sport that allows a coach to come out and potentially argue ever play. You would probably run any coach that did, but by rule he could.

Over time umpires and the game have adapted to meet the acceptable needs of the game. Look at how the strike zone was called 10 years ago vs now. The rule book didn't change regarding the zone, but the desire to call it by rule did.

If we as umpires didn't use certain standards and mechanics, we would create more problems for ourselves than we want. Ex. Umpires start jumping in and correcting our partners without them asking. This creates an illusion that our partners can't handle their job and it cause an increase in the visits to them by coaches. The coach might even use our actions against our partner, and we just lead to an increase in ejections.

If you want to make things better and get things right and increase crew communication in baseball umpiring, then you yourself have to be more willing to seek help, even without being asked.

Ex. I was working a DI game where the score was 3-2 bases loaded and a HR ball was hit right down the right field line. I was U1 and I went down the line. It was this month in one of those cold grey fogged bay area games I was talking about. When I turned I got set early in an attempt to find the ball. I NEVER SAW THE BALL AFTER I TURNED TO GO OUT ON IT. Let me be clear, it wasn't that I saw it and couldn't tell if it was fair/foul. I never picked it up again. I did everything I was suppose to do, mechanics were text book, I just couldn't find it.
I heard it hit foul, I looked at the bullpen of the team on defense, no reaction, I looked at the right fielder no reaction, I listened to the dugout of the offensive team no reaction. I signaled foul, then pointed foul, and jogged back to my position.
The HC started out of the 3rd base dugout to talk to me and before he got to the plate, I held my hand up and asked him to go back to the dugout. I told him I was going to talk with the PU and we would let him know.

At this point, how many umpires would have let the coach come out to argue the call. Then if you end up getting help after the arguement and you change the call, what does that look like to the other guy?

Well the PU told me the ball was about 150 feet above the pole and it was either fair or foul by a nut hair. We decided that it was too close to change. I told the coach and he said thanks for getting help, we just wanted to make sure.

I also brought this situation up when teaching at a recent HS clinic. The guys got the point as to why it is bad to get to close to your play. YOU MIGHT MISS SOMETHING! We were working the point of the plate and I was teaching them to be at the edge of the circle. It was nice to see the recent EOS clip and have it pointed out that the PU was too close on a couple of plays at the plate.

Bullheaded Indeed!
 

If an umpire calls "OUT!" that means he has seen the play. You don't call phantom outs.

Umpires have to have "some" ability to umpire. Pretty simple.

If the BU asks before the call OR the call is safe a PU can give help (if asked). If the call is "OUT!" then there is no help to be given.

Make that an 'Old Timer" or "Bullheaded" decision, it is simply correct.

But actually I get my calls.

Regards,

Very good point!
 

The BU gets in position to make the call, and if any question - then ask!

Once you call out, then he's out!

I'm as PU headed back to the plate.

Who cares what the coach thinks - he's not an umpire.

Thanks
David

While David's and Tim's advice is good for a majority of the plays at first. It is still acceptable to get help and change a call if you feel you need to even after an out call.

The difference between baseball and every other sports is that it is the only sport that allows a coach to come out and potentially argue ever play.

They argue in other sports just as much. The difference is that the officials are close enough to the coach that "coming out" isn't necessary.

Football has it the worst because there is an official right on the sideline so the coach can get right in his face.

I agree! I do a lot of indoor soccer! Talk about complaining! It is further a lot harder than baseball because in indoor soccer, outdoor soccer, and basketball, you can have two VERY different styles of play (and since the play is dynamic, you have to allow the styles!). Often, you will have a team that is aggressive, the type of play where they challenge every ball, do a lot of hands on contact like hand checking, minor bumps slightly after a ball is kicked away. Then you have a team that tends to play a bit more cleaner style. When these two teams compete, you can have a tough day on your hands! Are you going to allow the aggressive team play their style as long as they don't start altering play by taking advantage of the contact, or are you going make that aggressive team play a clean game like their opponent? It is a VERY tough decision to make!!! Let the aggressive team play and the clean team complains. Call a clean game and the aggressive team complains. :(

Yes, I could call these soft fouls all day long, but don't because it would slow the game down and make it ugly. My job is to make sure that these trifling fouls don't put the offended team at a disadvantage in play. Usually, it doesn't, it is just sort of annoying to the offended players. Now, my job is to mediate; to explain to the offended team that I will not let it go any farther than that and keep my word. Usually, this is enough to keep everybody happy.

But complain they do! It has to be handled in soccer/basketball just like it is in baseball. You ignore a little, you give them looks, then you ask them to stop, then you warn, then you eject. Simple enough.

All the time in soccer, team captains approach me for a clarification about a call. They are not per se challenging my judgment, but rather trying to inquire about what the call was and why. Sometimes, they are in a heightened emotional state when they do so. Again, I handle them the same as in baseball. Certainly in soccer, I do not let any person continue to question my judgment calls! That is dissent in soccer. The first offense is a yellow card, the second is an ejection because of the second yellow card. About the same as in baseball!

I give far more verbal warnings in soccer than baseball! The game is different in that more players are involved in situations that offend them, or where they have offended.

Anyway, baseball really isn't that much different than other sports concerning coaches/players arguing/questioning calls, and I think the basics for dealing with these situations is fairly similar between many sports.

Concerning the topic.

Make sure you cover this in your pre-game for sure!

I recently did a game where we didn't, and there was swipe tag on a bad throw at first. At the time, I thought I was 100% that he didn't get a tag and safed him. Of course the defensive coach came out. I didn't go for help (heck yes, I most certainly should have!!! :( ) and I had no idea if my partner had anything for me because we didn't agree to a signal. Again, I was at the time, 100% sure of my call, but in hindsite, I was only 95% (I didn't see a tag, but I didn't see him not tag either!), and my partner says he got the tag on.

Live and learn I suppose. It was a blow out game and didn't hurt the team, but in a close game, that could have been a game changing mistake on my part. What harm would it have been to ask for help after play was over? None, and it would have made the Head Coach happy. But aside from that, it is just the right thing to do.

On the other end, what can you do? In a close game, in a game changing situation, I think I would say to my partner "Bob, can we talk for a moment" then give him what I got unsolicited. In a blow out, maybe I would stay out of it until he comes to me. It is a tough call. Certainly though, it is your partners call all the way to stay with or change.

It certainly is a judgement call!!
I'm not letting a HC come out and challenge this call based on a rules interp issue.
There is judgement as to when the foot was pulled or if it retouched.
If a good umpire is blocked from seeing the pulled foot or doesn't have the proper angle to see it he will ask for help before making the call. If he's new, there's no better way for him to learn than to take some heat.
If I'm in B and there's even a remote chance the foot was pulled I'll point to PU and yell "was the foot on?" wait for the affirmative and then ring it.
If I'm PU and the foot is 6" off, if my P don't ask I don't tell. More harm comes from sticking my nose in on this call when not asked than results from a blown call. IMHO

Butt in to his call.... no way!
 

I would never offer my partner help with his calls. If he needs help, he knows from our pregame that he can feel free to ask me. Besides, ever seen this:

From OBR-
9.02
(b) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made. Such appeal shall be made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.
(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

My emphasis...

Pretty clear IMO.

Not too many OBR games this time of year! ;)

You can read the whole spiel about getting the call right in NCAA games in the CCA mechanics book.

Also, it helps if you look at it as offering information to your partner that they may not have, you can see how that is a very reasonable thing to do in the spirit of getting the call right!

Also, offering this information does NOT require to umpire who made the call to actually change the call! So, it stays true to the concept that "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it."

Is it information they don't have, or information they saw and judged differently than you did? It's a fine line.

Hmmm,
 

"While David's and Tim's advice is good for a majority of the plays at first. It is still acceptable to get help and change a call if you feel you need to even after an out call."

Rather than turn this into the standard eumpire.com pissing contest I will state the following:

Durham has developed a nice body of work. The work represents the "new age" concept of umpiring. While I disagree as strongly as possible with Durham's position I certainly support his right to state it.

Psst, don't go for help when you call a guy out! Period!
Regards,

Fair enough-

Frrom 2006 NCAA Baseball Rules (I don't have the 2007 yet, will get it at our association's meeting this weekend)

3-6-g
No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it; if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.

So what rule is being misinterpreted here? BU failed to see the pulled foot... thats poor judgement or mechanics, not misinterpretation.

In the CCA Manual, in Section 5 they quote the above rule, and explain that "except in special situations, such as those outlined in the next section, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner."

The special situations listed are:

1. Deciding if a homerun is fair or foul.
2. Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a homerun or ground rule double.
3. Cases in which a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4. Cases in which a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5. Cases in which an umpire errs in judgment because he did not see a ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6. Spectator interference plays.
7. Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

I don't see pulled foot...

Unsolicited? That's the last day you'll work in my area.

If BU needs help or if coach convinces him/her to ask, the PU should tell BU what he/she saw, and it's then BU's call to keep or change.

But NEVER EVER EVER should an umpire offer unsolicited advice on a judgement call that belongs to the other umpire. Never. Ever.

If I go to my partner immediately after a play and tell him that he screwed the pooch, that is interfering with another umpire’s decision. No matter how you say it.... you're trying to insert yourself into his call.

No kidding. Otherwise forevermore those coaches will 'shop' for calls all day long....and the rest of the association will have to deal with it too.

"Go to your partner, blue!!"
"No, its my call, not his"
"But the umpires we had ____________ did it!"

The NCAA disagrees with you..... also being taught this way in the FED clinic I attended.

NCAA Softball Umpire Improvement Program
Umpire Manual
(Including - Instructions for NCAA Umpire Manual Updates – 2006)

SECTION 7
B — Going for Help
The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. But who will judge that the final decision is, in fact, the correct one?

If a call is changed from what it was originally, a different faction will now disagree with the modified call. Because of this, it is paramount that umpires do everything possible to make the correct decision initially and not have to change a call.

To substantially raise the odds of making a correct decision umpires have only to do their
job–every game, every play, every pitch. What this means is:
• You must know where you want to go.
• You must hustle to get there ahead of the play.
• You must be set for the play.
• You must adjust if the play develops differently.
• You must hold your decision until the play is completely over.
• You must move to your next position whether the play goes there or not.

Constantly and continually using the proven techniques for umpires will put, the over-whelming majority of the time, the umpire in a position to see the play more accurately than anyone else on the field. It is the nature of the game that whatever call an umpire makes, someone will disagree with it. Don’t sell yourself short! If you have gotten close enough to the play, gotten a desirable angle, clearly seen the action, and lack no necessary information needed for a decision, then why would you even entertain the thought that one of your partners, who was certainly farther away, probably had a worse angle, and definitely wasn’t looking to make the call, could see the play better than you.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays on which they are 100 percent confident in their judgment and view of the play. Have the conviction to stay with a call that you believe was made properly.

Going for help should not destroy the credibility of umpires and negate the value of a multiple umpire system. Do not go for help to pacify a coach or to be a nice guy. This is a cop-out and is disrespectful of yourself, other umpires, the coach, and the game itself. There are times, both by rule and circumstance, that an umpire will need to seek help on a call.

Umpires must get help on the following:

• A misinterpretation of a rule.
• When asked by the catcher on a checked swing called a ball.
• On a pickoff attempt when asked by a coach.
• When two umpires make different calls on the same play.
Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
• When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make an accurate judgment.
• When they have doubt.
• When doubt is created.

If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision. Ask your partner what you need to know: “Did she have the bag?” “Was the ball dropped/bobbled?” Your partner will respond with a verbal answer to your question. You then follow with the final call and signal for the play. If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited, go to your partner for the information you need. If, after making your call and playing action has ceased, you are asked to get some help and you have doubt, (e.g., a part of the play you did not see as clearly as you would have liked and could have missed a crucial element), then ask your partner for assistance.

Keep in mind that some calls cannot be reversed after playing action without creating larger problems like where to place runners and determining what would have happened had the call been different. If you, probably because of poor timing, make an immediately apparent incorrect call, promptly change the call to the correct one.

Any time you seek help from a partner, that partner must have been in a credible position to give you assistance with the call. The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner and has the ultimate decision of whether to change the call or not. Rarely is there a need for umpires to come together and confer. Unnecessary conferences among umpires delay the game and cast doubt on the crew. Most requests for assistance from a partner should be out in the open, direct, and concise - “Jane, was the ball on the ground?”

Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100 percent certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire:

• Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
• Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
• Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
• Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
• Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
• Spectator interference plays.

Psychology of Asking for Help
Many times coaches really do not expect a call to be changed. But if they can get an umpire to seek help, they have gotten the umpire to admit doubt. Though the call may not be changed, the coach has set a precedent and will expect the umpire to go for help on all future requests. Because you went for help for one coach, the other coach will feel justified in expecting the same treatment

This is the baseball board... Is it possible that the two games that are played under different rules are also officiated with different guidlines? I posted the CCA manual notes in a preceding post.

Hmmm,
 

Justme:

I have always respected your work (and still do) however there is a huge difference between baseball and softball.

Softball rules and interpretations are not connected, in any way, with baseball.

Regards,

Justme - even if that book applied to baseball (it doesn't), where in the long diatribe does it suggest that an umpire should butt into his partner's call on a pulled foot if he's not asked?

Right you are I posted the wrong thing...here's what I meant to post. I do not have a newer version since I no longer desire to work college ball. But the clinics I attended (NCAA level & higher and a FED clinic) taught it this way.


2005 NCAA Baseball Division 1 Championship
Game Officials Manual


6.11 Getting the call right

The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision – not the pride of any umpire – must prevail.

Following are general guidelines for this policy:
A) NCAA rule 3-6-f states “No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision, unless asked by the one making it; however, if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.” Therefore, except in special situations such as those outlined in the next paragraph, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner.
B) An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.
C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.
D) Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls be reversed in this situation.
E) Skipped, tells how to conference.
F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

I wasn't addressing a specific situation because I agree that the pulled foot is not mentioned. I was merely pointing out that in some situations current teaching says that it is okay for an umpire to approach unsoliciated to his partner.

His post is verbatim of what is in the 2007 NCAA Baseball Umpires Manual.

My bad for suggesting that you might step in and offer unsolicited information on a pulled foot.

But again, if the game is on the line over that call, personally, I will probably go out on a limb and still go unsolicited to the decided umpire and tell him what I saw.

In any case, that is a situation where the deciding umpire should be telling the coach "Hey Skip, I am going to talk with my partner about this call ok? I am going to check to see if he seen what I seen." No harm in that at all.

But indeed, at the NCAA level, and you WILL see this at the NFHS level in their manuals (I am in Oregon, thus, we use CCA mechanics, thus, I am going with the NCAA way of seek help...).

I think it is natural for us umpires to be suspicious of any procedure where we might have to admit we are wrong to a coach! :) But, in the last couple of years in NCAA ball, I have personally never seen this concept abused by a coach, and opposing coaches have accepted this procedure gracefully, even when the call as been reversed. Yes, they have their "turn" at questioning you, but at the end of the day, everybody is happy that the call is right!

I am personally in favor or the CREW ON THE FIELD getting together on certain calls and getting in right. But if replay ever shows up on the diamond, I will have to give hard thought to whether I want to do this anymore.

Sorry Tim, but in this case, both manuals are identical! ;)

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience I had while umpiring a High School age Fall Ball game last year.

I was BU in A and the batter hit a "routine grounder" to the left side of the infield. The F5 cleanly fielded it and threw to 1st. I had moved into fair territory at a roughly 45 degree angle to the 1B line. As the throw left F5's hand it quickly became apparent that it was not a "quality" throw. I focused on the base and listened for the catch. Sure enough, the F3's foot came off the bag as he reached for the throw and it was clear to me that he was off the bag before he caught the throw, which was 2-3 steps ahead of the BR.

As the BR crossed the bag, I made an emphatic "SAFE!" call, & followed with a two-hand sweeping motion while verbalizing "Off the bag".

All of a sudden, there's some lamentation from the defense, and my partner, who is roughly 1/2 way up the 1B line discretely signals me that he's got something I may not have seen.

I then called Time and my partner and I had a private conversation with my partner, during which my partner informed me that he had clearly seen the F3 make a "good" swipe tag of the BR before he had reached 1B.

I then announced that the BR was "Out, on the tag!". There was no objection from the offense when I reversed my call, and the game proceeded to completion without further incident, despite some bangers on the bases.

From my perspective, I FUBAR'd that call at 1B. I could make the lame excuse that I was screened from seeing the tag by F3's body (which I was), but that was just because I didn't know enough to make the minor adjustment necessary to get a clear view. Even more mortifying to me, is that I didn't even know that the F3 had attempted a swipe tag, let alone whether or not the tag was good. I had not employed "proper use of the eyes", because once I saw the F3's foot come off the bag, I had neglected to closely observe what he did once he caught the ball.

When I attended the Desert Classic the following month, I was instructed on both of these points and, hopefully, I will avoid making these particualr mistakes in the future. I'm sure there will be others. While attending class, I related this situation to one of the instructors over adult beverages one evening. While he was too polite to call me an incompetent boob, his distaste for the fact that I had reversed my original call was evident.

At the time, I was glad that my partner let me know he had seen something and felt it was "the right thing to do" to reverse my call. Now I'm not so sure. The MiLB umpire/instructor seemed to suggest that, even after receiving the additional info., I should have just "eaten" the call.

I would also appreciate some clarification on the rationale behind Tim C.'s statement that:

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Thanks.

JM

Great story JM. Thanks for sharing that.

The mind set of sticking with your call no matter what is coming to an end, even in MiLB & MLB level. If you watch pro-ball then I'm sure you've begun to see the umpires conferencing more. The idea is to get the call right. Of course there are times when you can't change the call because it will cause more problems then it corrects but when you can get the call right I believe that you should. Remember, the good of the game clearly outweights the ego of the umpire (or at least it should).

Actually, when you read the "NCAA baseball" umpire instructions (my 2nd long post) you'll see the pulled foot addressed in (f).

Justme,

I assume you are referring to (my emphasis):

Yes?

What this passage actually says is that the call in the situations discussed in this thread (i.e. erroneous out call on a pulled foot, erroneous safe call on an "unobserved" but successful swipe tag) should NOT be reversed.

Because they are both judgement calls...

which have traditionally not been subject to reversal...

and

this practice shall continue.

While I would not argue against the position that the good of the game is more important than the umpire's ego, I might be willing to engage in a debate on the question of whether or not the good of the game is best served by reversing a judgement call - even if said judgement call was incorrect.

Two different questions in my mind.

I've observed the trend you mention in MLB. I'm not so sure it's a good thing.

In a related vein, my opinion is that the use of instant replay as an element of officiating in football (both the NFL and NCAA) is detrimental to the good of the game and has resulted in a mild deterioration of the quality of officiating.

JM

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

Craig,

Thanks. Your restatement of what Tim said in the first sentence of his post on the subject was the nudge I needed to get the point.

Sometimes I'm dense. :o

JM

Re-read the passage. The pulled foot is an exception as is every example given in ()

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners

Okay, lets debate


Why isn't it?

Maybe sometimes you might call someone out because you didn't see something that made him safe....it happens!

Justme,

Your logic is faulty when it comes to the way you are interpreting this paragraph.

It is saying force plays when the ball is not dropped or the foot is not pulled are not subject to reversal. It does not mean that unsolicited advice should be given when the ball is dropped or the foot is pulled. It only means that these two types of force plays can be reversed. The umpire who originally had the call must still go to his partner and ask for help.

According to the NCAA rules you posted, there are only 7 situations where unsolicited advice is warranted or even tolerated. Neither a straight dropped ball on a force nor a pulled foot on a force are one of them.

If the umpire did not see the dropped ball because of turning from the play too fast, or was screened from seeing it (he did not see the ball dropped or juggled after a tag or force), then his partner should come to him and correct it. On a straight dropped ball, the umpire must have judged possession, and must seek help on his own.

I think one thing is for sure, and that is that the whole "getting the call right" concept and procedures are going to become prevelent at all levels of baseball.

How far will it go, and what other scenarios might be added into the "get some help" catagory? That remains to be seen. But, I don't see this going away.

Also, based on my experience with it, I don't see it as a bad thing. Indeed, some coaches may try to get this on every call in the field, but we have ways to deal with appeals that make a mockery of the game, and I imagine those will start to apply to the coach who asks us to go for help on every call! :) We may deal with that like we would them arguing balls and strikes, or how we deal with constant appeals at every base even when there was no question as to the outcome.

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts! ;)

Sounds like you got the call right. If you're BU, you were focusing on the right spot: You have to get the timing of the catch/foot plant at 1. That said, you should EXPECT that your partner will not be watching the same spot. HE should be (and was according to your post) watching for exactly what he saw, a swipe tag or OBS/INT/Foul, etc.

It is possible that you were too close to the play to see the entire motion.

All that FUBAR/boob stuff is blather. You and your partner got the call right. If this guy was sore with you over that, maybe you should choose a different partner next time.

Next.

I think the key is to ask for help (if you are going to do it) before your call....that ensures one call is made. If you are BU in JM's play and you even think there may be extenuating circumstances (I understand that in this particular case you must have been so tunnelvisioned on the foot that you missed the swipe tag entirely), you have to ask the PU before you rule.

That 'gets it right' and leaves no impression that your call was 'changed'.

I believe you're correct, I stand corrected.

BUT, the pulled foot is subject to reversal......

F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.
Edit/Delete Message

Justme,

I believe you are correct that the text you quoted does say this, and I stand corrected.

Rcichon,

I didn't mean to suggest that my partner was in any way upset with me or I with him in this situation. He simply let me know that he had something for me if I wanted it - with the way everybody reacted to my call, it became obvious to me that I had missed something. So I did want to know what he saw. He just told me what he saw and left it to me to decide whether or not to reverse the call - as I believe is proper.

This particular individual has been immensely helpful to me in getting started umpiring.

While I agree that the PU in this situation should be watching for a swipe tag, the fact of the matter is that it was my responsibility to make the call, and I screwed the pooch because I didn't do it right. Specifically, I

1. Failed to adjust my eyes to the ball (in the F3's glove) as the action continued to develop after I saw the pulled foot

and

2. Failed to make the minor adjustment in my angle of view to the play to clear the screening effect of F3's body.

I think my "distance" was about right - roughly 15' from the play.

I believe (hope?) that if I were to have the same play occur today, I would do these things correctly and make the right call initially or, if I were unable to "clear the screen", at least know that I did not have sufficient information to make the call and go to my partner for help before making a call - as LMan suggests.

In this case, my problem was that at the instant I made the call, I was 100% confident that I had made the correct call and it didn't even occur to me that I might have missed something. I quickly became disabused of that notion.

Steve,

Now just a Gol' Darn Minute!! Coaches don't get HALF the respect they deserve!!! And a lot of coaches have some VERY valuable opinions!!!! Why just the other day...

Oh.... Wait a minute.... Never mind. (Sometimes I forget that I've crossed over to the dark side.)

When I was coaching, I would on rare occasions go to talk to an umpire when I felt that he had missed one of these "pulled foot" or "swipe tag" situations. I would generally only do this when it looked pretty obvious to me that he had missed the call. I would ask him if he would mind checking with his partner because I had seen the play differently & his partner might have had a better angle.

Now I really didn't expect him to reverse his call in these situations. Sometimes the umpire would check with his partner, sometimes he wouldn't. (I think in 12 years of coaching, I got exactly one of these types of calls reversed.) I never made a big deal out of it and I didn't start acting like a jerk because of it. I did want the umpire to know that I was watching closely and that I thought he had missed the call. To me, that was part of my job in managing the team.

JM

I will start by saying that I agree with Tim's last statement toward me and do not wish to turn this into a measuring contest. My intent is only to engage in civil discussion.

I understand that we don't want to have "phantom out" calls, but as many here have stated, when the call is your responsibility; then you are charged with making a call. I for one have been on the field when bad baseball has taken place and due to last second acrobatics, my angle was lost and I got the best look that I could. I am not opposed to getting help before making the call, but I think if you use that a lot then it opens you up more than getting help when asked.

Let's say that I was in a great position to see the pulled foot, but it turned into a bad one for the swipe tag, or run downs those are always fun.

You make the best call that you can and you sell the hell out of it. Which ever way might be best to sell the call based on situation and such.

Tim, I can honsetly say that there have been a few times where I would have gotten help on an out call if the coach would have been smart enough to come out and ask me to get help, but as we know they are not always that smart. :)

My 1st year on Pro ball I had 27 ejections in the Penn League, then in spring before my second year they instructed MiLB umpires as a group that they wanted a kinder gentler umpire. In my 2nd year I had 4 ejections with time in the Sally, FSL, & Southern.

I got out and the NCAA said they wanted kinder gentler umpires too.

If a head coach comes out and asks me to get help and I feel that it was a situation that warranted it I would most certainly ask.

I would bring the entire crew together ask what ever question was appropriate and make a decission. Another thread asked about how do you change a call.

If I were the crew chief I would walk over to the dugout of the team that the change would go against and inform the head coach of the change and tell him that my partners gave me information that I didn't have and I CHANGED MY CALL. I would also not allow him to approach my partners and warn him if need be and eject him if I had too, but I would not allow him to go after my partners.

If I weren't the crew chief I would do everything the same, but I would walk over there with the crew chief.

By walking over to the head coach and informing him in this manner, I feel that you are much more likely to prevent an ejection. You will not always avoid it, but by explaining the situation versus reacting to his charging out on the field there will be less trouble when you change the call.

Tim, I would also not go get help if the coach came out in an unreasonable manner. Only if he was under control and asked in a calm manner.

Thoughts?

I have worked plenty of summer collegiate ball, wood-bat leagues with college players, adult leagues with college and former professional players, and top level Varsity HS games since 1987. I have plenty of reference on which to base my opinions. Let me know when you have nearly the experience I have.

rei,

I would just like to offer the following observations.

Though you have only recently begun posting to this forum, the impression I have formed in my mind (based solely on the content of your posts) is that you tend to know what you are talking about, and, from my perspective, are someone who contributes to the value this resource offers.

In my experience on this board, pursuing the line of "discussion" you are following in the post immediately above will contribute "less than zero" to the value of this forum. So I have chosen not to engage in such discussions.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

QED

That didn't take long.

JM

First off, the implication that MiLB is better than NCAA or vice versa is just flat stupid. They are simply different.

Second off... REI - you've just gotten a ringing endorsement from the court jester. Congrats. So far in your short life, you've come across as nothing but condescending to the general populus here.

I'll take you at your word (Tee's backup helps there!) that you actually have the experience you claim to have, but some of the comments you have made give the majority of us reason to doubt your ability to work with anyone. (Re: comments in one thread that you tell "lesser umpires" how to judge a check swing at your pregame conference... comments in another ribbing a so-called-junior umpire for doing HIS job at a time when his job necessarily had to include preventing you from playing hopscotch with a coach that you found particularly cute (verbally cute that is), wasting everyone else's time, etc.)

Take a deep breath and realize that 90% of the posters here are here to learn from our betters and educate the newbies - and that most of us are in the middle of that spectrum. And also remember that an umpire can be good and still work at a "lower" level than you, and that different things are expected at different levels... NCAA is NOT the default setting.

I believe some of us would say that you've crossed over from the dark side.

"Now, *cough* Mr Blue....pull my lineup card and stopwatch from me....I want to see the rulebook with my own eyes...."

"I cant do that, JM, you'll die as a coach"

"Nothing can stop that now......."

"NO..Ive got to save you"

"Mr Blue....you already have....."

I will keep that mind. Thanks for sharing.

I am sorry you feel that way. I am about 100% sure if we met in person, and talked about the same subjects, you would not feel this way, unless you were extremely insecure about where you are at as an umpire.

The brevity required to get an idea across on a BBS such as this means that sometimes you have to assume the best about a person. ;)

Can you please point to some kind of fact that would say that this is how I think?

rei has what level experience? You seem to know a lot about him. Where can I see him work?