Can "FOUL" be made "FAIR"?
 

Hey Everyone,

Last year I was apart of a baseball tourn. here in NJ. I was watching a Legion "level" game where there was a dispute about fair vs. foul. Let me set it up for you:

R2 and R1, 1 out, for arguements sake a 2-2 count on the BR. BU in position "C". BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag - makes a weird angle into fair territory. No call (at this point) but the BU points towards center field. (i was assume to signal fair)

As the ball lays in center field as F8 tries to recover it, R2 lands on 3rd, R1 lands on 2nd and BR is just about to hit first as we hear..."FOUL" from the PU.

The coach argues and the BU is telling his partner.. Its Fair!.... The PU says I'm running the game and I called it Foul, once it is foul, it is foul. Send the players back. As the BU was sending them back the coach called the tourn. director over and he placed the runners back on their bases that they "would have obtained".

I.e. changed a "FOUL" call to "FAIR"...

1) What would you do?
2) If a situation like this happens... can you keep the runners at their bases or once you call FOUL, do you die with that call?

Fair or Foul?
 

It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag it the BU calls. In this case, if ball it's bag, PU as call.

In a perfect world, the PU overruling the BU should not even be an issue here.

No way in hell is that the BU's "fair/foul" call from "C" position.

Coupled with the PU's telling his partner, loud enough for the game participants to hear him, that, "I'm running the game and I called it foul", leads me to believe that this crew had some problems from the get-go.

Actually, with BU in position C, as was stated in the OP, PU has ALL fair/foul responsibility. So in my opinion, it's the PU that should be upset with his partner, not the other way around.

As far as changing the call on the field, in the 2-man system, this is PU's call. He must have seen the ball become foul. Otherwise, why in the world would he declair a ball that is resting in center field foul? I admit that this would be a tough sell, but he must have seen it become foul.

As far as the TD becoming involved with this play.... not on my watch. That would defintely be the last time I work a game in a tournament being run by him.

In addition to what Bretman has said, the Tournament Director has absolutely no business putting any runners anywhere.

If the coach wants to file a protest, no he can become involved, otherwise stay off my field.

"He must have seen the ball become foul"

Play description: "BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag . ."


Hitting the bag makes it fair - period. PU must have really bad vision or needs a rules refresher.

I guess I didn't make my point correctly. I was inferring that it's possible PU saw foul and the coach and PAT may be mistaken in thinking it hit the bag.

I agree that if it did in fact hit the bag, it's fair- period.

I see that several here have completely missed the point.

Yeah, this is PU's call. But PU's ego doesn't put him in position to make an incorrect ruling. And while TD probably handled this poorly, the TD certainly does have a responsibility to fixing PROTESTABLE situations.

The only way TD's actions are correct is if the coach protested (which is possible, although also handled wrong), AND the PU said he saw the ball hit the bag first and that was his reason for ruling it foul (thus making the whole thing a protestable rules misinterpretation, and not a judgement call).

If I was BU in a sitch like this, when PU yelled, "FOUL", I'd have approached him, away from coaches, and asked him what he saw. If it was even remotely a judgement thing (which would have to include him not seeing the ball hit the bag), play on - foul ball, and start herding the inevitable assitants away from PU while the head coach goes ballistic on him. However, if PU admits seeing the ball hit the bag, I'd remind him that by definition that makes it fair, and WE (meaning he) had an obligation to fix the situation. Then let HIM reverse the call and deal with the OTHER manager.

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

[/QUOTE]

In OBR based leagues a FOUL call can be changed to FAIR. We saw this last year in a PRO game and Andy Konar LL's chief umpire changed a FOUL call to FAIR in a LLWS game some years back.

You asked what would I do. Do you mean what would I do if I were the BU? I have made my share of mistakes in my umpiring career, but not the one you described. It's a no brainer when the ball hits either the first / 3rd base bag, so i will answer from the BU's perspective. If I were the PU and my partner did say to me "Hey Pete what's up" I would change the call and take the heat. In this case not to much because everyone reacted as if the ball were Fair anyhow.

One of the Cardinal rules of umpiring. When you need to discuss something with your partner Do it away from the coach In other words I would instruct the coach to stay away until I had time to discuss the situation with my partner. The BU should have kept his mouth shut in front of the coach.

Even though I was in position "C" and the Fair/ Foul call is not my call, I would say to my partner. Joe, the ball hit the bag. Were you looking at some GLM while the play was in progress. I would also say that We will not get a lot of heat if we indeed change the call, because the players reacted as if in fact the ball were Fair.

You as BU can state your point, but ultimately it's the PU's call.

As far as the TD over-turning a call on the Field - NO WAY. The TD has no business over-turning calls on the field. If the manager filed a protest, then the TD would get involved as far as whatever protest procedures are established for that league.

NOTE: If the aforementioned happened in a FED game, the FOUL call would stands no matter who didn't like it.

Pete Booth

The description was "hit a shot - hit the bag". I really think if the ball hit someone in foul territory the original poster wouldn't have even posted the question.

This is a protestable situation, as the call is not judgement, its a rule. Ball hits bag = fair.

Why is BU pointing? Its not his call, if that's what he's doing. PU should be pointing 'fair'.

RE: This 'blanket statement' stuff....give us a break. We can only go with what the OP said....if he said, 'hits shot, ball hits bag' then you gotta assume it went straight to the bag, so its fair. This 'oh, but I can think up 15,000 other situations the OP never mentioned where it wouldn't be xxxxx' is ridiculous.

Well, I agree that the BU had no business pointing and that the PU has the ball all the way down the line. I am of the opinion that the PU is probably of LL-rookie caliber who thinks that the ball hitting the bag is foul (maybe it hit the foul side of the bag :D ).

As far as a TD walking on the field, when a TD walks on the field I ask him politely to leave. If he doesn't, my partner/partners and I leave and the game is done! The jerk only gets one shot and we always agree to this before we take the field.

What???? Read the original post again....... If the ball, unobstructed by any fielder in foul territory (what was the fielder doing standing in foul territory?), hits the base (as described in the OP) then it's fair.....period! Spread out the blanket.

Unless an alien abducted the ball, dropped it in on the base and it then rolled into center field. In this situation Rule 13-1-1 clearly states that this is a "do over". :D

To Clarify:

The ball hit the bag from a line shot, it did not hit anything before it nor would it have been viewed as a “foul ball” if so.

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

He told me that he called it foul because it was so. He couldn’t give me an explanation and then proceeded to rant to be about his inadequate partner and why would he be on the 3rd base side of the diamond.(I know this from being his partner for the next game)

So its not what I thought I saw, it was what happened.

This call (especially when made so late that runners had advanced whole bases, as opposed to immediately after the hit) is most definitely protestable. If coach did that, it could be fixed the way TD fixed it.

However, in agreeance with Ozzy - if TD inserted himself directly, without umpires calling him over in order to deal with a protest, TD was flat out wrong.

Then again - idiotic PU didn't know that a ball hitting the bag was a fair ball ... I'm sure he did not know that TD's shouldn't be inserting themselves into games.

Pat - did you tell him he was wrong (both on the call and on the positioning of his partner)?

Can foul be made fair?

Sure. Brinkman did it in Seattle on a shot down the third baseline in 2004. The result was that a Seattle R2 was put out and the manager was ejected.

The critical issue is........were there wristbands involved?

Ok... thats where I was confused. Your OP said the Plate Umpire... clearly this game didn't have a plate umpire.

Maybe it was one of those fields where the foul line goes to the middle of the bag. I hate those. I always tell the coaches we're going to play the lines as marked but if it hits the bag it's fair.

Shoot the Tournament Director.

...and if the body falls into DBT, everyone gets one base.

Now, I don't care who you are: That's funny.

The OP also didn't tell us that:

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

I was just trying to point out that we may not have all the information when we start to throw other umpires under the bus. Now that we have more information, maybe the plate guy should have started out under the bus.

I think someone mentioned this already, per rule if a batted ball hits a base it's fair. In my opinion, thats one 'foul' that can be reversed. The fact that PU didn't allow that is a different topic. The TD, while well intentioned, has no business reversing any call, or placing runners.

In this situation, the BU making a fair/foul call does not apply. Why bring it up at all?

Take a minute and go back to your basics, and read the situation!

BU in B or C, PU has ALL fair/foul calls! Period!

And Andy Konyar did it on a ball down the left field line in a LLWS game. The result was a single turned into a standup triple, and a whole nation of LL umpires went through all kinds of silly rationalizations to avoid admitting that the Wizard of Williamsport simply screwed the pooch on that one.

First of all, be very cautious when using Uncle George as a rules or mechanics reference, because he is often wrong.

Second, where are you getting some of this stuff? The BU has absolutely no fair or foul call when working inside the diamond. Period. He only has fair/foul on balls hit past the bag at 1st base when working in "A" position on the 1st base line, or when he goes out from that position. Where do you get this "left side" and "right side" of the rubber stuff?:confused:

You're kidding, right? You're not on drugs, are you? Are your arm bands on too tight?

PU has issues.

TD has issues.

If there was a protest the PU would have to say "yes I saw it hit the bag, but..." to overule him. If he said "it didn't hit the bag, it hit a rock in foul territory just beyond the bag"...

It seems to me that while PU may not have actually been under the bus, his head MAY have been up the gas pipe.......

This is why I continue to read this forum!

Good, at least you are reading!

The "V" is for fly ball coverage. In a 2 man system, the only time the BU gets to call anything fair or foul is when there are no runners on and he is in the "A" position. The PU takes the call from the plate to the 1st bas bag and the BU gets the call from the 1st base bag down the line to the pole.

*******READ CAREFULLY********

When the BU is in "B" or "C" position, he has no business making any calls on the lines. The PU takes all fair and foul calls when the BU is "in".

The only exception is "foul in the box" that the PU cannot see.

Regards
Ozzy

Did I say I was right?
 

[QUOTE=SanDiegoSteve]First of all, be very cautious when using Uncle George as a rules or mechanics reference, because he is often wrong.

SanDiegoSteve, here's what I posted:

"It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag its the BU call. In this case, if ball hit's bag, PU has call."

No where did I say I was right! In this situation, the PU has the ball to the bag! In a two person crew, with the BU in the "C" position, the PU has the ball all the way down the line! Is the right or wrong?

You know Steve, when other umps read this forms, I hope they don't take the information word for word. For me, I go the rule book, case book and umpires manual to "get it right"!

After every game when I'm working with a seasoned ump, I ask for crituque, whether it's bad or good. You learn from your mistakes. If I do write something wrong, let me know but don't degrad me. You don't make mistakes? Belittling umps on this forms dosen't help ther confidence, it just tears it down. I apologize that I'm not as smart as you.

Uncle George

I seriously doubt this guy would be smart enough to think of that one.

Uncle George,

I made the statement based on other posts of yours which provided incorrect, or downright bad advice. I just wanted the impressionable youths who frequent this forum to be careful when receiving advice from you. I'm also sure that they should do the same with advice from others here, myself included.

The quote above is what you said in post #2 of this thread. In post #1, the original play said that the BU was in position "C," which is located inside the diamond. This makes your statement that the BU has the call past the bag incorrect for the situation as described. The fact that the BU has the fair/foul past the base when working in "A" is irrelevant in this case, and should not have been presented in your post.

[QUOTE=Uncle George]Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle. Nice try, but you really can't retract yourself out of this one. Pertaining to this actual thread and the first post, you were quite simply wrong. Just say, "Ooops, my bad" and move on. Trying to explain that in an alternate universe where the topic at hand was different, you might be right in an isolated case just makes you look foolish.

The only time I'm ever turning Foul to Fair is when a) something so blatent has happened such as a rules mishap or b) if I have some sort of seizure and say foul ball on a pop up in foul territory before the ball hits the ground and a fielder catches it (which actually I think is i a FED casebook somewhere).

Regards, and thinking about living the dream of minor league ball after I graduate from college...

Tuss

Quality, not quantity, Littleboyblue. Read the rulebook and the appropriate mechanics book. Then read them again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

Then read them again.

Dammit, I'm only on the 13th again.....

*Hustles towards rulebook to read it again*

I have copies of the OBR, PBUC blue and red handbooks, CCA Mechanics, NCAA Rulebook, FED Rulebook and Casebook in the family room, bathroom, bedroom, at school and in my equipment bag. Additionally, I keep a copy of the JEA in my family room. I don't stop re-reading them until August.

At this point in your career, it's a nonessential. Read more of less.

I would like to get my hands on some good mechanics/positioning manuals. I've got "The Official Rules of Baseball", but that cost me an extra 40 bucks just to get it shipped to Canada (they do a great job at hiding this extra cost until you've already paid it). Sandiego Steve was nice enough to provide me with lots of rules interpretations, and I'm hoping to add to that with some mechanics and positioning manuals. Any suggestions?

What I am suggesting is that your posts to this point do not indicate you have the fundamental understanding of the rules and mechanics. Your time would be better spent improving that situation rather than on reading peripheral books.

You can read the rules for free at:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info...s/foreword.jsp

Some good mechanics powerpoints here:

http://www.ihsa.org/education/index.htm

They don't have the latest changes on line yet.

(Sigh)

1. I've raised two teenagers. I don't need to raise another or deal with attitude.

2. Why do you choose to act like a punk when people try to help you? No wonder most who have stopped trying to help have not "come back."

Maybe three or four times since 1996, when I first became involved in sports part of the internet, have I been goaded into laying out my resume. I won't do that here. What I do dare to brag about is this: I am a damn good teacher. I am a damn good trainer of young and otherwise inexperienced umpires. Young men whom I have mentored are now working varsity and College level baseball. Two have gone to proschool, one to Harry's and one to Jim's. Both were honor graduates.

I have a good eye for the potential and attitude it takes to be a good umpire. Despite verbally slapping some rookies upside the head, I have the patience to come back to offer to help and see if they demonstrate any ability to learn.

I do not, however, waste my time on punks with attitude.

Have a great life.

Rich,

All the 2006 rule changes are there, just missing the case book info found in the printed books.

Updates for 2007:

1. All 23 changes now apply to MLB (Only MiLB in '06)

2. In MLB, areas that mention league president mean Comm. of Baseball

3. Any reference to "he, him or his"" is deemed a reference to "she, her or hers" when person is female.

4. Automatic fines/suspensions do not apply to MLB (Up to the Comm).

5. Rule 6.09(b) casebook comment that adds "Lingers at home plate"

6. Rule 1.15(a) case book comment that white piping is allowed on pitchers glove as long as it's not distracting in umpires judgement

I would post the entire MLB memo (Dated Jan 2, 2007) but it's 16 pages or so in total. I can e-mail to those in need - just PM me.

You just did. :)

Is it possible you're misinterpreting the kid's response? It sure didn't strike me as dripping with attitude or disrespect.

If there's more going on than I'm aware of, please disregard, but on the posts I read, I couldn't really logically follow the trajectory of the conversation.

Like I said, the latest changes aren't on line yet.

More 2007 changes:

7.08 (a)(1) now has "his baseline" instead of "direct line between bases" and defines "his baseline"

6.05(k) now allows a runner to exit the three foot lane in the immediate vicinity of first bas in order to touch the base. 7.09 (k) which was redundant has been eliminated.

The press release on the latest changes are on line.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releas...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

GarthB:

I have never had any problems with boyinblue. I don't understand this "attitude" of his that you speak of. Looks to me like he's picking up some tips from the veterans, and you're not making that a very pleasant task. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with giving a hot-headed newbie a kick in the butt now and then, but boyinblue is not the hothead that you are making him out to be. I probably am, but he isn't.

"Ah! I see. Very well then. As you wish."

My first thought was this was a quote from The Princess Bride.

Paulie,

As with most of your perceptions, rules interpretations and thoughts of mechanics, you're wrong again.

Rich made an excellent, if, for you at least, obscure, observation.

Of course, I could start in on the whole iocane powder thing -- if it's as deadly as they say, how could the hero build up immunity of it?

PWL: Even if Garth and I bicker occasionally, and it is only occasionally, it's still worth more to me than anything you post.

I went to a CTE advisory board meeting last week. When we signed in we were given one of those large "Hello, My name is..." stickers to fill out and wear.

On mine I wrote : “Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die.”

“You be careful. People in masks cannot be trusted.” - ibid

JM

“You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!” Op cit.

Will someone loan NFump an Adam's apple..........:o