Rules We Don't Like
 

We recently discussed Fed rules that many of us do not like. But what can we do about it?

I see that some guy in California just set a Christmas tree, an American flag, and himself on fire out of outrage toward the local school district, which had voted to rename "winter" and "spring" vacations back to "Christmas" and "Easter" vacations.

Do you think if enough of us set our rule books and case books, along with ourselves, on fire, we could effect some long-overdue changes? What if a bunch of us did this outside Fed headquarters?

Good for the school district. Too bad I missed it, I would have brought some marshmellows.

Unfortunately, somebody nearby happened to have a fire extinguisher.

Not long ago I edited a paper about the efforts of the government of India to assist members of historically "backward" (the government's term) classes, or castes. The author told me that even today, it is not uncommon for a university student to set himself on fire upon learning that a member of such-and-such caste has been granted admission.

Imagine how much greater impact Earl Weaver's videotaped tirade would have had if Earl had simply sat down on second base and self-immolated. Question: If that happens in a game of yours, do you eject the guy for doing that?

Of course you do. Everybody knows there's no smoking on the baseball field.

Why shouldn't he get to keep his hit if he didn't interfere with the play? A carelessly discarded bat has a severe enough penalty for the second offense.


Tim.

Dangerous Hitter
 

That severe penalty applies to bandannas and jewelry, playing pepper or electronic equipment. All are allowed at the MLB level behind the Cardinals dugout.

Usually a bat goes flying into the stands and the batter is not warned. He already knows that he should HOLD on to the bat. Players that carelessly tossed bats or helmets out of misplaced anger have already been declared OUT. This is usually followed by an immediate ejection. It happens every season.

Why allow the clown who happens to reach base safely to engage in dangerous behavior? Again I understand the current rule. It is a rule I don't like and a rule I would amend to read, "The ejected player is declared OUT, unless he has already scored." Rules do not protect a dangerous runner that way, so why shoud rules protect a dangerous hitter?

Professional players are adults who really don't need to be protected. The NFHS, along with most other organizations that govern youth baseball have decided that wearing jewelry is a safety hazard, and in order to protect the games participants they've implemented safety rules that disallow players from wearing any. I don't know of any umpires in my area that will eject a player for wearing jewelry unless after being asked to remove it they refuse.
I've never seen a bat go flying into the stands in a high school game. But if I did you can bet there would be a warning issued.

A bat thrown out of anger or frustration is not a carelessly thrown bat, so of course they should be ejected immediately.


I'm still not sure why you'd like to see a more severe penalty for an inadvertant action on the part of a batter that doesn't effect the play. He's done nothing malicious or intentional. When I think of a carelessly discarded bat I think of a bat that accidentally slips out of a players hands on his follow swing, not some overt act to injure someone.


Tim.

Don't Do That
 

You make it sound so simple and innocent. I wish it were true. A carelessly thrown bat happens. The catcher is the one who is often hit with the bat. There are times when a bat sails over or by the catcher and squarely hits the plate ump.

There was a time when a DUI was a slap on the wrist. Times have changed. When I think of a bat that has been carelessly tossed, I visualize one both flying and spinning in a large parabolic arc. Now you may allow slips, accidents, and inadvertant footsies; but I have learned not to listen to those who use them excuses.

If bat doesn't sail near anyone, I got nothing.
If bat sails near someone or barely hits anyone below the pelvis, I have a warning to issue.
If bat hits anyone above pelvis, I have an ejection report to write up.
A substitute will soon enter the ballgame.

It would be on defense if I had the ability to influence the rules committee. Action by those who do re-write the rules in this case would serve a much needed purpose. It would tell the rats, "Don't bring that cheese in here."

There will always be rules that we do not like.

My biggest "beef" with the rules is that IMO too much is placed on blue with respect to safety and controlling the game compared to when I played.

When I played, the participants "policed" themselves. Blue simply had to call the game. Not so today. In addition to knowing the rules etc. we have to stop games because of "trash talk" etc.

In my day we didn't have to worry about trash talk. It was taken care of on the field of play and was accepted. Today you have riots.

Then we have all this "safety business" to worry about because of the Liability factor. Someone is looking for that easy "big pay day" etc. As it stands now, we have to get to the game site early to check hats / bats. IMO, that should be the coaches job not ours. If a kid does come to bat with an illegal bat, then we simply enforce the rule which in FED is an out. However, the original checking etc. should be on the coach.

The other issue is the on-deck batter. Because of the incident in the Witchita St game, we are told to strictly enforce the rule and make sure the on-deck batter is on his/her own side.

The Catcher's equipment. If a kid is squatting down then he needs to have a helmet / mask on. Also, the proper throat guard. etc.

In a nutshell, the Safety Requirements should be the responsibilty of (1) The parents. When my kids played I made sure they had the proper equipment and (2) the coaches.

Our job is to call the game, however, in todays; environment not only do we need to be umpires but psycologists and policemen as well.

Pete Booth

we have to stop games because of "trash talk" etc.

The psychology has changed since I played in the 1960s and early 1970s. There was plenty of "bench jockeying" and wisecracking from the stands back then, but the worst thing you could do was be a "rabbit ears" and react to jibes from the other team or hecklers in the stands. Anyone who let somebody's mouth get to him was "bush league." But today, it's almost as if the players feel obliged to retaliate with more than words out of fear of being considered cowards.

(I will admit that in the "old" days, the players and even the loudmouthed fans usually stayed within unwritten but understood boundaries. No using the player's name, no obscenities, and so on. And the remarks were supposed to contain some degree of cleverness, however crude.)

I will probably get trashed here for mentioning this, but, the Fed rule I dislike the most is the FPSR and contact rules, particlularly players not being able to break up a double play or roll the catcher.

I was a HS and later a D1 catcher (in the '70's) and I really don't understand the rules regarding contact. Catchers and middle infielders both learn how to protect themselves, it's part of baseball.

Don't roast me too hard on this one, you asked which rules I didn't like!

Ain't that the truth


I agree with you once again. I wonder if the additional umpire responsibilities, and the hassles associated with enforcing them, aren’t a major reason that recruiting young umpires is so difficult. I’m sure it adds to the number of veteran umpires who walk away from the game too.

My siblings and I grew up in the 50’s & 60’s; I wonder how we survived without all of the rules to protect us from ourselves.

Ditto.....

I don't understand why either of you would preferr to see a runner allowed to crash the catcher or make contact on the pivot man at second in a high school game. These are young men playing and should be afforded the protection that the FPSR rule provides.


Tim.

I don't understand why any rule set would allow a runner to maliciously contact a catcher.

I suppose I can see it still being allowed at the professional level as a matter of tradition. But for any level lower than that, especially with teenagers still in school, no way.


Tim.

The NCAA seems reasonable, agressive contact to reach the base is allowed, malicious contact with malicous purpose is not. With the salaries paid today I don't understand why ML owners are not oppossed to MC on their expensive catchers.

I think they should be able to bring weapons on the field.

Back in the day they could police themselves. You crash my catcher, I'll put one in your ear. Tony C. was a pussy.

I hate the tobacco rule. What's better than swallowing a nice plug o' Red Man while taking one for the team...

While you're at it, make 'em all wear wool in the summer. Didn't have the new fangled Under Armour in my day.

Yeah, those were better times!

Because it's baseball, not golf. And I never said anything about malicious contact, malicious contact has no place anywhere in baseball. I like the college rules for contact much better.

Remember, the title of this topic, Rules you don't like.

Would you have the FPSR ammended to model NCAA, which appears even more stringent?


Tim.

etn_ump stole my thunder. The name of this category is "Rules We Don't Like," not "Let's Argue About Your Choices Of Rules You Don't Like."

Let us just list the rules we don't like, and not give us a ration of crap about it. We did not ask to debate the subject, just to give our opinions.

And I don't think tradition itself is the reason the MLB allows crashing the catcher. So did a lot of leagues that I played catcher in, and I welcomed the baserunner to try to knock the ball out of my hands. It's part of BASEBALL. There were no "slide or avoid" or "no canning the catcher" rules when I was playing ball (which I did until I was 30), and I don't remember any serious injuries directly attributed to collisions. Like etn_ump said, the keystoners and catchers knew how to play the game.

We played football in the street, got all skinned up, and slammed into cars all the time. It was just a tougher world back then I guess, without all the lawsuit-crazy parents we have today.

You can still have rules against Malicious Contact, without having a rule such as the FPSR. Long before this rule came about, there were FED rules in place that protected against Malicious Contact, and everything worked out just fine.

You said "players not being able to break up a double play or roll the catcher". What did you mean by "roll the catcher"? I took that to mean maliciously, since you are allowed a hard legal slide into the catcher.

There are more violent sports than MLB. NFL and NHL come to mind, but there are malicious actions that will get you ejected, fined and suspended and many more unsportsmanlike stuff that will get penalties. Why MLB still allows one of the team's most important investments to get crashed malicously is beyond me.

NCAA has altered the FPSR for '07 so the runner can slide through the bag, because so many couldn't stop.
NFHS is all about player safety because most players are not as talented as the few who will play at the next level.
I think the on-deck batter in his circle is a POE in 07 for NFHS. This is not enforced enough. It saves what, 5 seconds? It comes from the LL and BRuth ball trying to speed up the game. (Call more strikes.) This is another liability issue we need to clean up. If the player is not where he is supposed to be, and we allow it to happen, then we are on the hook. It sucks for us, but we gotta do it.

A rule I'd change is the batter intentionally getting HBP on a 3-ball count. (I must be a magnet for it.) There's no penalty, but there should be. Stay in the box or call him out. But try and sell that one for an out.
The worst call I hate making is the interference on the FPSR. No one is watching as they follow the ball. Had one coach tell me, "We'll be looking very close at your calls at second from now on." Oh, please.

Sounds like my kind of league!

No sale on (getting an out) getting hit by a 4th ball. That's just stupid on the batter's part.

Under OBR it's not normally interference, but under NCAA and NFHS it's a rule expected to be called, so I have no problem calling it. As BU it's not my first responsibililty but I know PU will be watching for this per our pre-game.

It's Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.
Christian or not, how can it be bad to abide by the 10 commandments?
Is there something wrong with being honest, not cheating on your spouse, not stealing, not killing, honoring your parents, not bearing false witness, etc?

Heck all religion aside, those are some pretty solid principles to live by, aren't they?

Steve:


I wasn't giving you any crap about your opinions. This board would be pretty bland if we didn't discuss our positions on situations where we may or may not agree with each other. Perhaps it's because right now I have two sons playing under NFHS rules, one in the ICCL and one in high school that causes me to support limited contact rules such as the FPSR. Neither of my sons are wimps, but I don't want to have to see one of them have their knee taken out on a hard slide. I can't afford to be macho when it comes to my childrens safety.


Tim.

The universtity may provides some sponsorship, but the the players pay to play and the teams around here have to pay for community owned field use instead of playing on the university field, even on weekends when it is not in use.

Indeed I was during my early youth, all the way through Thoroughbred (what is the equivalent of today's Palomino 17-18). After my stint in the Army, I played in adult leagues, including baseball, fast-pitch softball, and 3-pitch leagues, as well as good ol' fashioned pick-up "beer ball" games on Saturdays and Sundays year round. In these leagues, I loved to play catcher, and my teammates loved having me there because I loved to block the plate.

The only thing that stopped me from my insatiable appetite to play ball was my finding umpiring (as well as reffing bball and football), and involving myself in that 6 to 7 days a week instead. I lost the desire to continue to be a "rat" once I discovered the joy of arbitration.

And yes, I could pick it at 1st base with the best of them.

I am very familiar with Club Ball. My son played for a club team at a DI school. I think the team may have gotten a little money from the school for baseballs, but the players paid to play and it was always a puzzle to me why the team had to rent fields elsewhere for games when the "real college team" was playing a weekend series away. If the university really supported the team the field would be theirs when not in use. I expect some of the regular fans would come out to watch, if they only knew the club team existed.

There were several very good players on the team but they had a LH pitcher who played CF when not pitching and when pitching he was always listed as DH for himself, so that when he left the mound, if he left the mound, he would stay in to bat. He was Club team all american and what I could not figure out is why he was not playing on the big team.

There were no faculty reps that I could see, but all the players were confirmed as full time students (12 hours or more) and the coaches were former players/graduates who probably wanted to become a college coach someday.

In some areas, where colleges have eliminated baseball to help satisfy Title IX, club ball is the only opportunity for students to play.

I agree. I like the WUA interpretation found in the MLBUM. It seems more fair.


8-21-03 @ WUA Site — When a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may have occurred had the ball remained live. Outs occurring before the ball went out of play stand.

The new interpretation goes on to emphasize that a ball stuck in a fielder's glove is not to be considered out of play; the ball remains live. It is legal for one fielder to throw the glove with a live ball stuck in it to another fielder. A fielder who possesses the ball/glove combination in his own hand or glove can complete a tag of a runner or base, just as if he were holding only the
ball.


Tim.

That's also the NCAA interp.

The question is.... who gets ejected in this? Just the guys that started the fight or what?

In FED anyone that leaves their posisiton to go fight is ejected, so since both benches cleared, is everyone ejected and the game thrown out?

It is unlikely that the majority of umpires on this board will ever experience anything like this. In this situation I would do just what these guys did, stand back and watch the action while writing down numbers of the players starting the fight.

Good videos, but the whole thing is quite depressing to watch. It smacks so much of the drunken over-the-hill hotheads in slow-pitch softball—the kind of crap that impels townships to discontinue leagues.

The tough guy has seen the big leaguers shove cameramen, so he figures that he has to do it, too.

I certainly hope there are consequences.

I've traveled to Schaumburg many times. Never knew the place to have a minor league team, but maybe they do. If Schaumburg is playing Kansas City, it's hard to believe it's some semi-pro league. On one of my trips, I stopped in St. Charles, Illinois, not too far from Schaumburg, to see their minor league team. One dollar to park.

I had you living near Princeton, in NJ.

Correct. Since 1954. Lived one block from Einstein until he died in 1955.

Yep. Me and Al had some good times.

From 1984 to 1995 I traveled the country for AT&T and a bunch of other companies. Put at least half a million miles on my frequent flyer cards.

Today my only travel is to umpire. I now do all my work in my home office and am quite thankful I don't have to fly anywhere. I'm sure I would be hauled away in handcuffs for having a belt buckle or chapstick that could be used as a weapon or for some similar violation.

I plan to move to Alabama or Georgia when my obligations here are over. As has been mentioned often on this site, New Jersey is run by idiots. Our ultra-rich airhead governor is now set to commute the sentences of all the murderers on the state's death row, including the monster who raped and murdered little Megan Kanka (cf. Megan's Law) and then dumped her corpse in the woods.

Another rising shot
 

I deleted my original comment after confirming the very same info moments later in the "flag placement" thread. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Speaking of airplanes, I am also reminded of turbulent flow around them, the rising fastball discussions, and your conversation with Mr. Reynolds. :)

How does a 400 mph, 150 ton airliner undergo unexplained "rising actions" in middle of horizontal or downward flight? Boundary layer turbulent flow may explain both the fluttering action of a knuckleball and the necessary lift component of a rising fastball. But then again, a round white cowhide doesn't have red threaded wings attached to it, either. Of course it would be easier to prove if someone could throw a rising fastball. :p :p :p

Delay of game
 

True, but I would hope the ONE umpire who has this kind of crap on his resume is not negatively affected by it. Preventive game management is something we can all think about and work on. I feel the PU was unfairly criticized by HC at the most inappropriate time. To top it off, I did not see one security or administrative official interject throughout the entire melee. Why is it the Umpire is only held to such a high standard as Pete Booth suggested in thread #10?

Gee, they could write a book. I am not a writer and I don't carry a tape recorder or camera and when I get into a fight I don't really remember anything that happens other than the overall picture. I can't even remember faces, facts and words that may help me explain inappropriate actions by all of the idiots who may be involved. The details were lost in the melee and at the end the melee gets dumped on the UMP.

Never seen anything like this. Game is over in FED, because everybody that fought or left the bench to fight is gone.

From video 4 it looks like the batter and the catcher are having words before the next pitch that went behind his back. This is confirmed by catcher's comments in video 2. If ump had gotten between the two when they were having words and put a stop to that this might not have happened. And the ball headed guy that came up to the plate with no helment on while they were talking should have been dealt with also.

I just read another rule I don't like dealing with a lodged ball, but I am not talking. Whatever rationale is provided for this particular situation has to be as weak as the thrown bat award allowing batter to keep his meaningless base hit, followed by the immediate ejection penalty for sending a person to the hospital. In fact, I may handle the situation the very same way. OOPS.

How about awarding bases because the pitcher fielded a sacrifice bunt with a glove that had a tiny bit of white on it, like the white around the Rawlings logo?

So would the game be totally thrown out and replayed or treated like a game that got rained out and is able to be resumed?

The umpires weren't fighting. After the first ump got run over they just stood back and watched (as I would have done).


I'm glad that I have a better memory then you and, as the PU, have a pencil to write with & paper to write on.

I expect the state would put an end to both team's seasons, and the coaching staffs should lose their coaching jobs for not providing the necessary leadership to prevent such a thing from happening. In a FED game the PU shouldn't let the catcher and batter jaw at each other and shouldn't allow the on deck batter anywhere near the plate with a batter in the box, and should issue a team warning for not having a helmet on.

Game Management Issues
 

Sure they can fight and I can sit and watch from the sidelines. What preventive measures are in place to stop other situations like this from occuring in the first place? I do not want this to turn into another blame the ump for allowing it to happen campaign because I know he wasn't responsible. Are we as a society going to continue to allow our athletes to get away with murder?

What happens to the lunatics who began this mess? What about the other lunatics running after each other for NO apparent reason? Are they going to face criminal assualt charges? If management continues to list names of these lunatics on their playing roster, are they also going to face possible civil liability issues as employers? I would like to know that one "out of control" HC was made aware of his responsibilities within the organization. If the word doesn't get out, why write anything down?

Preventive measures? You mean like having armed guards & shooting the first SOB to throw a punch? How do you suggest that it be handled?


Lunatics? That's a little rough isn't it? I'm sure that there will be some league punishment like fines (if pro) or suspensions (or both) but it is unlikely that we'll be able to know what it was.

Criminal assualt charges? There goes hockey. Maybe if someone used a bat as a weapon but not just for a bench clearing brawl.

There's the "L" word again.... Civil liability? Come on......just think insurance and let the law suits begin.

You can write and ask the HC's management, maybe they'll tell you. They haven't told me anything.

Why write anything down? There are always reports to be made, got to have paperwork, and if your memory is as bad as you said it was then you should write stuff down.

How would you get the word out?

Ugly situation, but...
 

What is the realistic expectation of the UIC here? Remember, this is a professional baseball game being played by grown men.

The plate ump did exactly what he was supposed to do, issue a warning. It's hard to tell how much bad blood there was between these two teams before the game began. Is that UIC's fault as well? No.

If this were a FED game, many of us would take care of it by giving an early gate (I think), but this level of baseball is much different. These men (and I use that term loosely) are supposed to know and abide by the unwritten rules concerning "showing up" their opponent and playing the game "the right way."

Sometimes things get out of control in competitive sports. At the professional level, it's the job of the club and league offices to control these jerks. The umpires are there to call the game, not teach proper behavior. But at the HS level, many upires are required to teach as well because maybe the coaches don't know any better.

[QUOTE=ctblu40]What is the realistic expectation of the UIC here? Remember, this is a professional baseball game being played by grown men.

The plate ump did exactly what he was supposed to do, issue a warning. /QUOTE]I have never worked a pro game, but in all games I have worked it is reasonable for the UIC to put a stop to the batter and catcher having a long heated discussion as appears happened here. And he should not allow an on deck batter to enter the area of the batter's box for any reason. The warning came one pitch too late. If the discussion between the catcher and batter was as heated as it looked then he shouldn't just stand there with his hands on his hips.

I'm not throwing the guy under the bus, but some preventive umpiring might have helped, or maybe not.

That rule is specifically aimed at Rawlings. Wilson is a NFHS sponsor and Rawlings is their main competition. Pitiful.:mad:

I agree 100%. WTF was that guy doing just letting them jabber on for an extended period of time? Then the on-deck batters walk up around home and the PU doesn't blink an eye! I was astonished to see his lack of presence to stop the situation before it started. The jabbering btw the batter and catcher should have been halted and the on-deck batters should be in the on-deck circle where they belong.

Here we go, again . . .
 

"That rule is specifically aimed at Rawlings. Wilson is a NFHS sponsor and Rawlings is their main competition. Pitiful."

This ties for the dumbest post ever made on the internet.

Regards,

Really? Rawlings is a sponsor, too -- the glove is shown on the back of the rules book, iirc.

My 2005 NFHS rule book has an advertisement on the back cover for the Rawlings Liquidmetal 2 baseball bat.

I don't believe you are reading the Exception correctly. It does not say that the penalty for extra warm up pitches is a called "Ball." In fact, it does not list a penalty at all, rather it is an exception from a penalty as in 6-2-2c, which states that the pitcher must pitch or attempt a play within 20 seconds of receiving the ball. They list an exception to point out that they mean after each pitch, a 20 second count starts, but does not pertain to warm up pitches. In fact, the umpire can authorize more pitches in case of weather conditions or injury.

The umpire is just supposed to tell the catcher that the pitcher's warm ups are done, but there is no penalty for taking an extra one, except that it usually wrankles the umpire a bit.

How would I get the word out?
 

Very good suggestion. Awareness classes, field security armed with video equipment. The SOB has to know he will be shot. Can't depend on the networks to carry MiLB or the quality of a spectator's NCAA/HS Fancam.
I agree and apologize to the lunatics, hooligan is a more appropriate term.
Yep, misdemeanor charges of disorderly conduct, assault, or aggravated assualt should put a stop to these shenanagans. Sentenced to a court work program, anger management classes and community service costs.
A lawyer's ad said, "The insurance company has gotta know who it's dealing with." It certainly isn't the victim.
Ball Game works well for me. The suggestion of fans walking away should work for the OWNERS.