Balk question
 

Here's the situation, FED rules. Fall Ball league for High Schoolers. R2. the pitcher takes the sign from the rubber in the windup (facing the plate). he (a). rises his hands over his head (just like the first part of his windup), once he reaches the highest point over his head he steps off the rubber. (b) starts his windup by stepping off with the wrong foot and rises his arms over his head.

both times he caught the runner, however I called a balk in situation B. saying that he didn't break his hands once he disengaged from the rubber.

it just seemed wrong that's why I called it, but the pitcher was livid, saying things like he does it in high school ball all the time. So I need some backup and a rules reference if you guys have one.

thanks,

Joe

Once in the wind up position, a pitcher may not do anything associated with a pitch, ie raising hands above his head. He may only step off of the rubber, or pitch.

It's a balk, but not for not breaking the hands. Both A and B are balks for starting the motion and not completing the pitch.

The "break your hands" rule is OBR not FED.

And even then, it's not a balk to have the hands together, step off, and leave the hands together. They only must be separated before F1 re-engages the rubber.

bob,

According to OBR:

Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.

According to rule 8.01, the pitcher MUST separate his hands as he disengages the rubber.

if that's the case, then isn't B legal? his first motion was to step off the rubber, then he raised his hands over his head

Joe

No, B is not legal. Raising his hands over his head is a motion normally associated with the windup. Since he disengaged the pitcher's plate, he made that motion while not in contact with the pitcher's plate. That's a balk.

The rule is written so it appears to require that the hands separate as F1 steps off, that is not the intent of the rule. F1 must drop his hands at some point before re-engaging the pitcher's plate, but he does not have to do so as he steps off.

Delaware,

Here is even more the rulebook:

Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

I don't know what could be more clear. If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

In the OP, you wrote "stepping off with wrong foot". I assumed that meant the left foot (for a RHP). If so, that's the start of a motion, and a balk. If F1 stepped off with the pivot foot, then the step off is legal, but raising the hands over the head becomes part of the motion, and is a balk.

sorry I was confusing in the OP, I meant stepping off with the wrong foot to start the motion, not the wrong foot to disengage the runner

Joe

tibear:

There are over 200 mistakes in the rulebook. Until we get a major rewrite, he need to consider how the rules are applied by those who own them. The JEA, J/R, the WUA and both pro schools all agree that the intent of the rule is that the pitcher must separate his hands prior to retaking the rubber.

Tell me, do you make a runner stay within 3 feet of a direct line bewteen the bases? That's what the rule says, but again, that is not how it is interpreted or enforced.

Different posters have given you the correct information. You now have the opportunity to learn something and choose to umpire a basegame as it is intended to be done, or not.

Yes, F1 must separate his hands, but he is not required to do so as he disengages. As Mr. Jenkins said, the pitcher must drop his hands before re-engaging the pitcher's plate. Even if F1 fails to drop his hands before re-engaging, it's not a balk. It's a prohibited action and there is no penalty. You just call time and tell the pitcher to step off and drop his hands.

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

The only time I've seen anyone crticized for calling by the "intention of the rule" is when they are mistaken on the intention of the rule.

Where is "around here?"

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.

That's not a correct interpretation. Bob is correct, and is supported by multiple references in the authoritative literature.

If you need solid proof that the experienced members of this board are giving you the correct interpretation that this is not a balk, this may help. This is the professional interpretation as written by Rick Roder who is the co-author of the Jaska/Roder Manual. The WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick for clarification.

Pitchers

a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.

b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,

c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.


No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.


Tim.

MLB, the entity that hires members of the WUA and the owners of the rules, takes it further by not just saying don't penalize it, but that it is not a balk as long as the hands are separated prior to the pitcher re-taking the rubber.

The confusion is understandable given MLB's seeming inability to get a re-write of the rules done. However, members of the rules committe have committed to get it done, piece-meal, if necessary. One member told Evans that he hope to eventually address all the mistakes that Jim had identified.

I don't assume that the pitcher is not going to try to pick the runner off base when the pitcher steps off. On the contrary, I'm especially vigilant for a pick-off move when this occurs.

No, a balk is called because the pitcher does something which he is prohibited from doing, with the intent to illegally deceive the runner. There is always deception and trickery afoot when it comes to keeping runners from stealing bases, but only the illegal deception is penalized.

No, the rule book says to separate the hands to ensure the pitcher doesn't get back on the rubber with his hands still together for the purposes of a quick pitch. It is perfectly legal to step off the rubber with the pivot foot, then immediately throw to a base. No separation of hands is required. The pitcher becomes equal to a fielder when he disengages the rubber properly. He is only prohibited from simulating a pitch to the plate, as has been pointed out.

tibear,

It's great you're getting your nose in the rulebook and trying to understand fully what it says. But, as mentioned before, there are over 200 errors in the MLB rulebook.

When posters like bobjenkins and GarthB give you advice, TAKE THE MEDICINE. They know what they're talking about.

Wrong! You are quoting a case book comment that has an interpretation in the MLBUM (You can only get one from a MLB umpire). Bob is 100% in his telling you that the only time F1 has to break his hands before he steps back on the rubber. Oh yes, this is not a balk either - it's another one of those "don't do that" things. And while we are at it, stepping off with the wrong foot is also not a balk! It's just a violation with no penalty.

A pitcher is not restricted from placing his non-pivot behind the rubber while in the windup.

OBR 8.01 Legal Pitching Delivery

9) In the Windup position, the pitcher’s free foot may be on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber, or off to the side of the rubber.
Why was it a balk? Did he step back with the free foot or the pivot foot? Did he simulate his initial motion to pitch as he disengaged?


Tim.

The rule is essentially the same. The only change is that the pitcher no longer has to keep his free foot within the 24 inch length of the pitching rubber, which was never enforced anyway. It's never been a balk for placing the free foot behind the rubber while in the windup.


Tim.

Well, since everyone here is so ademant that this shouldn't be called a balk, I guess I'm going to have to go back to our local administration and get them to look into it. As I say, around here everyone calls it a balk. I've personally called it only once or twice but other guys call this maybe a dozen times a year.

Its going to be a hard sell because its pretty obvious that the OBR rulebook says the pitcher MUST seperate his hands as he steps off the rubber.

Items to help your discussion with your board:

1) The rule doesn't say "as" he steps off, it says "when" (meaning "after") he steps off.

2) There's no penalty specified in this comment or in this rule for failing to do so.

3) Almost all the balks are specified in 8.05. The rule in question is in 8.01

1) Yes, the rule says the pitcher must drop his hands.

2) No, the rule does not say when, so the interpretation used is "before re-engaging".

3) How can the pitcher throw to a base without first separating his hands?

Rich,

The rules states the pitcher must drop his hands to his sides, so I guess the phrase "separate his hands" is incorrect.

Around here if the pitcher steps off and throws directly to a base without dropping his hands to his side first, we call it a balk. As indicated, I guess we're going to have to re-evaluate this but I can hear everyone now, "That's not what the rulebook says and the pitcher does it to deceive the runner, so it's a balk".

I'll have to try the "show me in 8.05 where it would be a balk".

That ["show me in the Rule ..."] is EXACTLY what you should be saying. Lots of guys who "know" the Rules but do not regularly READ them freqently can be heard to intone "F1 did it to deceive ..." thus making the act, in their minds, a balk. Anytime I hear someone use "deception" as a rationale for calling a balk, I start from a presumption that they are wrong [there was no balk].

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

I don't think you've missed anything. I think PWL is wrong on this.

I suggest you acquire, and share with your association, the Jim Evans Pitching Regulations and Balks video, available at the Jim Evans Academy of Professional Umpiring website. It will correct this, and probably other, misconceptions about what is and isn't a balk.

I'm not sure what they are showing you at the meetings, but just for the record, here is what the rules say:

Windup Position: "After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position, or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other fielder." (6-1-2)

Set Position: "After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other fielder." (6-1-3)

The only possible interpretation is that he MAY (or may not, logically) throw or feint to a base. He is not required to do this. He can step backwards off the rubber with his pivot foot, and leave his free foot on the rubber, and just stand there like that all he wants.

I have no intention of going to your meeting. I posted the rule for others to read, not just for you. Please don't take it personally. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

I just wanted it to be clear that what you had written in the following post was not correct (because you argued for a balk, which it's not), and that someone brand new didn't read it and believe it to be true:

To which BigUmp56 replied:

"Why was it a balk? Did he step back with the free foot or the pivot foot? Did he simulate his initial motion to pitch as he disengaged?"

What you described is not, and was not prior to the rules changes, a balk in any rule set, so why would you argue that it is a balk?

What a coincidence - my association's first meeting is December 4, too. TASO Dallas. If that's yours, look me up.

Exactly. The separating his hands thing is a red herring, since the runner is watching the pitcher's pivot foot for his cue (s). The runner doesn't give a fig what the pitcher's hands are doing.....