Three Man Crew Positioning
 

Today, I had to observe (and not interfere with) three different crews working the three man system on the 90' diamond. I have to say, some of the "variations" were quite comical. Although some of the positioning was just flat out wrong, never was there any base or runner not covered by any of the crews. All of the crews were messing up with R1 & R2, R2 & R3 and the classics were R1, R2 & R3.

So I thought I'd see how you do it across the country. We are on the 90' diamond, OBR with U1, U2 & U3. Tell me where you all think U3 goes with: R1 & R2, R2 & R3 and R1, R2 & R3. Let's have some fun with this, guys - I know that some associations require different things. This is just informational.

R1 only - U2 in A, U3 in Deep B or Deep C.

R1 & R2 - U2 in A, U3 in C.

R2 only or R2 & R3 - U2 in B, U3 in D.

R3 only or No Runners - U2 in A, U3 in D.

Bases Loaded or R1 & R3 - U2 in A, U3 in C.

ditto except with 2 outs U2 in A and U3 in C with R2 or R2 and R3

although, i have seen some guys do it, i have never heard of or read a mechanics manual which requires a change of position due to the number of outs. am i wrong?

thx.

the state of illinois
 

this is in the mechanics for the state tournaments in Illinois

it's in the revised pbuc manual

But not in the CCA manual. Confused yet?

Try a copy of the PBUC.

all i have is the 2 man pbuc manual. as you guys know, i'm a novice and don't have much experience doing 3man. but, i've seen many guys change postioning in a 2 man crew when there are 2 outs. is there any validity to that?

Up here in Canada, whenever there is two outs the umpires are suppose to change their positions to give first base priority.

Here are the position manuals for 3 man crews:

http://66.241.210.162/files/Threeump...manual2006.pdf

See situation 3M-35.

Most of us are comfortable with two man, but rarely do three man enough to get "good" at it. I had the following discussion with one of our senior guys at the last tournament of the year.

No runners on, outs don't matter...SURE DOUBLE to the outfield. Never any question whether the ball is going to be caught, and easily makes it to the fence. My opinion was U1 was to move into the cutout, pivot, watch R1 touch 1st, then move to 2nd, while U2 stayed in D in case R1 tried to stretch it to a triple and of course U3 stayed at home.

U1 insisted that even on a SURE DOUBLE, U2 was to move to C, U3 was to move up the line towards third for a play there and U1 would cover home. My argument was why have all that rotation when U1 could move once, especially since the only thing going on at 1st was R1 touching it (no possible play).

Comments?

See Situation 3M-3:
http://66.241.210.162/files/Threeump...manual2006.pdf

Comment: I am confused as to the position designations you are using. I believe that U1 is normally the PU, U2 is the 1st base umpire and U3 is referred to as the 3rd base umpire. In Canada, it's PU, U1, and U3, respectively. What is the correct designation for each position, because now I am unsure?

The way we handle this type of play is the same way your 1st base umpire suggests. U3 (3rd base) comes into the infield and heads for 2nd base. U1 (the PU) comes up the line in case of a play at 3rd. If it then appears there will be a play at 3rd base, U2 (first base umpire) heads to home plate.

You can go both ways here. PBUC mechanics are U1 takes Batter/Runner (BR) into 2B if there is no play. This keeps from having all three umpires rotate on a non-play (Unless BR tries for 3B).

The mechanics now being used in AA/AA (This is a crew option) are:

1) Whenever there is R1, U1 is in short A (U3 can be in B or C)
2) U2 only or U2 &U3 - U3 is in D & U1 in deep B
3) Fly ball coverage - Inside umpire has 'V'.

So, to answer my question, is it PU, U1 and U3 as the correct terminology?

For most of the world.

That would be correct. I THINK Fed may use U1 = PU, etc, though since we don't use Fed mechanics here I may well be incorrect.

In this situation where bases empty and sure double, I think the mechanics offered in the Canadian manual make the most sense because the only umpire moving on the play would be U3 who would pickup the runner at second base and bring him to third if neccessary. U1 simply ensures the tag at first and PU stays at the plate. Alot less people running and U3 has lots of time to pick up BR at second.

Henny Youngman had nothing on you.:)

Yes, but consider the situation of a botched relay where BR is in motion and continues to 3B. U3 could easily be hung out to dry on this play, which is why whenever U3 moves toward 2B PU moves up toward 3B.

MUCH easier to let U1 pivot in and take BR into 2B on a non-play situation.

On a botched relay, the play should be completely in front of the umpire and he should have lots of time to get from 2nd to 3rd in time to make the call. By watching the ball and runner U3 will know where the play is going to be. At worst U3 will be in the same position as when a runner on 2nd was stealing third.

The only issue you might have is if there is a rundown between 2nd and 3rd. PU and U1 will have to communicate as to who is going out to help U3 and who is covering plate.

If you read the post I said a rundown between 2nd and 3rd. Who said anything about the runner going back to first???

I believe he is referring to the fact that U1 isn't doing anything because the runner has advanced past 2nd and thus should be the one to help U3 with the rundown.

Sure, play will be in front of U3, as will BR for about two seconds (That whooshing sound is him blowing past as you stop, reverse & try to catch up). Now we have a foot race with U3 losing badly - better hope PU bails him out.

Use the benefits of three umpires. Let U1 pivot in & take BR to 2B when there is no play. Should U3 feel there is a potential play, verbal & hand signal to 'push off' & crew rotates.

This leaves umpires on both sides of any potential play without needless rotating or sprinting to cover a botched play.

Now I have only been doing this for 30 years and have seen mechanics come & go. Trust me, this works.

Note: Should a crew be working 3 umpire with little chance for pre-brief &/or training (IE: a single game) by all means rotate in this situation ALWAYS as it reduces the opportunity for confusion.

I don't think U3 will be 10 feet from second base when he discovers the BR is rounding second and heading for third, more likely half or slightly more between third and second. This would give U3 plenty of time to get back to third to make the call. If you can't then you shouldn't be on the field.

Regardless, being from Canada we must follow the guidelines specified in the positioning manual because if all the umpires are doing different things your sure to screw up.

That's why there should always be a pre-game conference to discuss these scenarios.

This was my point...why have U1 (the first base ump) STAY at first? First base is a non-issue after it's been touched. This makes the mechanics EXACTLY like the two-man mechanics would be on a double to the outfield (watch the touch, pivot and take R1 to 2nd). U2 and U3 stay where they are. Why have U2 GUESS where to go when he doesn't have to?

FYI: We had a pregame conference about this and had THREE different opinions about what should happen. One guy suggested in most situation we stay in between the bases and figure out where to go as the play develops. My comment was, "So we've got three umpires out here and NONE of us should be actually positioned AT a base?"

oriole,

I see your point but as stated earlier that isn't the official procedure so to make sure everyone does the same thing, we all follow the manual which has U1 staying at first and U3 moving between 2nd and 3rd.

I don't see a big deal because if your working a 2 man system, in the same situation U1 will follow the BR right around to third if necessary so the situation of keeping up with the runner is even worse. In the three man scenario in all likelihood U3 has a better chance of getting to 2nd than U1 because U1 has to wait for the tag of first.

Either way your having an umpire(U1 or U3) standing do basically nothing, its just which guy has the better chance of getting to 2nd on a close play. Personally, I think it is U3.

This is turning into Third World Umpiring, guys.

With no one on and a sure hit to the outfield, U3 moves in. The PU rotates up the third base line and after the touch of first, U1 goes mid-way to the plate. Now you have an umpire waiting for the runner.

With no one on, any fly ball has to have an umpire on the ball. The opposite base umpire comes in and the PU goes to the missing side. The umpire that went out to cover the ball then hustles back to cover the plate.

For those who have a problem with U3 coming in on the sure hit, I'm 53 years old, 255 lbs, have a heart condition, missing parts from my lower back, an active hernia and I make it to second base before the runner every time! If the BR tries to stretch it to third, my PU should be there (I always glance over to verify he's there). In the rare occasion that my PU took a nap, a simple angle toward the third base line puts me into position for the play at third. Of course, my PU better not show up now!

I don't see a problem with any of these procedures as long as all of the umpires are on the same page.

That's why there are situation position manuals to get away of the arguing about which procedure is best.

Simply go with whatever is official in your area and HAVE A PRE-GAME CONFERENCE to go over specifics.

As I said, in Canada we don't rotate in this situation, only have U3 moving between 2nd and 3rd. However, other associations may have different procedures which work just as well.

My association says you're wrong.











;)

[QUOTE=ozzy6900]

With no one on and a sure hit to the outfield, U3 moves in. The PU rotates up the third base line and after the touch of first, U1 goes mid-way to the plate. Now you have an umpire waiting for the runner.

[QUOTE]

Thisi s the exact situation I was talking about earlier. Three umpires and not a ONE of them actually AT a base. Why have PU or U3 move at ALL on a sure double with no runners on? First base is irrelevant after B1 touches it. ONE movement, U1 follows the runner to 2nd, U3 is already at 3rd and PU stays home and watches for interference.

I agree everyone should be on the same page, but this rotation (or lack thereof) just makes more sense than having three umpires in the field of play trying to figure out who has which base and moving accordingly.

I don't remember the specifics, but a ML Umpire spoke at a clinic and he said that they had a similar mechanic -- on a "clear extra base hit" move one way; on everything else move another.

Worked fine until one umpire read it one way and another umpire read it the other way and no one (or two umpires) covered the play.

Now the mechanic is "move this way on all hits"

The new "everybody rotates" mechanic gives the appearance that all the umpires are hustling. Everybody has got somewhere to go, so nobody is standing around. My question is....if the PU is headed toward third, and the defense throws behind BR who has rounded first, and overthrows, who has the ball possibly going out of play? The PU used to come up 1BL just to take a look, and then is available to go into foul ball area to watch if an overthrow goes into the dugout. Now with everybody moving, who watches if the ball goes out of play?

A ball in the gap isn't a sure double? OK, maybe if some 300 pound kid hit it...

And I don't typically remove my pants on the field, although there have been quite a few times where I wanted to expose parts of my anatomy to various rats...

[QUOTE=orioles35][QUOTE=ozzy6900]

With no one on and a sure hit to the outfield, U3 moves in. The PU rotates up the third base line and after the touch of first, U1 goes mid-way to the plate. Now you have an umpire waiting for the runner.


U1 has the back half of a rundown, U3 is waiting on the BR at second, and the PU will be waiting at third if the BR commits there. If a TWP happens and the BR heads home, U1 will be waiting there. There will be no play where the umpire has to run hard to get in position.