More confrentation issues...
 

4 games at the field today. Worked as PU for the last 2.

Everything was going smoothly until the championship game. 2nd inning, pitcher can't find the plate. Couple moderatly close pitches, above the belly button, that I call ball.

Coach seems upset, and the same pitch is thrown again.

-"Ball"
-"Where was it?"
-"Upstairs"
Coach directed towards pitcher: "I don't know where he's gonna call a strike for you today".

I calmly said time and called the coach over from the dugout for a brief convo. Something along the lines of "Coach, you have the right to talk to your pitcher, but do not question balls and strikes while doing so. Its a slippery slope that you just began to walk. Please refrain from doing so again. Thankyou." all with my mask on, very low voice. When I was done with what I had to say I turned around back to the plate, coach says "I just want a shoulder to knee strike zone thats all". I kept walking

No problems the rest of the game.

Got to the parking lot, (had to stick around for the check from TD), and a Mom who was sort of riding me from the fence (and the opposing players a bit too, nothing too bad) came up to me and said she was really dissappointed with how I umpired. Partner had already left and I was literally 2 steps away from my door. I say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and continue to the car to try to just drive out.

She steps in front of the door and continues to talk about how unfair I was. I told her that I'd be glad to give her an email where she could complain to, my assignor. I wrote down my own non-school email and left. Finally.


Did I dance the dance ok?

You handled the coach well. As far as the lady in the parking lot goes—

Don't say you're sorry for anything.

Don't give her any e-mail addresses.

Don't talk about any aspect of the game you just officiated.

If you feel you must talk to her, refer her to someone who can help her get started on her umpiring career.

And as for the coach who said he wants a zone that's "shoulder to knee," call a shoulder-high strike on one of his players and see whether he really means what he said.

Tuss ........................
 

A little wordy for my taste, but not bad.

Also, you might not want to give that "do it again, you're gone" impression, it backs you into a corner as how to handle further outbursts.

Personally, in my universe, he would be gone.



Get paid before the games.

Normally, partners do not leave until we all are ready to go.

Tell her "Thank you" and move on.
Run her down !!!!!:D :D :D

Unless that's the accepted strike zone in your area for that level of game, the belly button is not the top of the zone.

You don't say what level ball this was, but no matter, I generally head off problems like this by calling a pitch above the belly button a strike, because it is.

I also don't call coaches out of the dugout to have a converstation with them about anything, and I would never say Please or Thank You during the short discussion.

I also don't talk with fans in the parking lot who want to b*tch.

I was just stating thats where the pitch was... not that the belly button is the top of the zone.

What if she's standing in front of your car door when you want to get in it?

No choice, what I said was with the intent of getting in my car ASAP.

I don't feel bad about the parkinglot thing. I found it funny that I gave her MY email adress. Will make for a funny reading tomarrow morning.

As for the please or thankyou thing, I've been critizized by members of this board and partners for being too confrentational. Maybe this time I was too nice?

Thanks DG for the input... I'll store it in the brain for next time!

And I don't converse with b*tches in the parking lot who want to talk, either.:D

Tuss, don't go out of your way to be confrontational, but don't go from one extreme to the other either. You certainly don't owe the coach any explanation as to the strike zone. When he started in with the "I don't know what he's gonna call" crap, I would tell him to stay off my strike zone. Any further discussion of the strike zone would then lead to a quick hook.

As for the lady in the parking lot, I would tell her the same thing I would tell a man in that situation: "Disappear."

I have had a couple partners jump in their cars and split on me as soon as they got to the parking lot. I proceeded to scratch each official with my assignor. That is throwing your partner under the bus, IMO. You should always stay with your partner until it's time to leave the park, unless you tell the other umpire to go ahead and take off.

You certainly don't seem too confrontational in this case. I would have ripped my mask off and told the coach to "stop it now coach", or any similar 4word phrase. Anything else is too much discussion.

I generally go to the trunk first, to remove my plate gear and while doing this I go to the back door to get a soda out of the cooler I have on the floorboard. The only time I have ever opened the driver side door and got in and drove off with full gear on it was raining like heck. However, is she is still there when I am ready to leave I would ask her to move so I can get in the car. That would probably be my first words to her, and most likely she has left by then. I probably would be decent enough to not remove my cup while she is still there.

By the way, what kind of games were these?

USSSA 12 year olds....

this is why I like it when I get assigned to the older boys, this s*** don't happen in those games...

But the same guy assigns them all and for fall ball, its the only stuff thats around. And he rotates us all around.

So this weekend was my turn to babysit :(

Its actually not bad ball minus the uptight coaches and crazy parents.

Call a bigger zone in these games, not as high as the shoulder, but at least 6 inches above the belly button. I have also been called a low strike umpire, but nobody complains they just adjust. It's the hollow beneath the knee thing so I call it.

Be more generous with strikes at this level and the games will move faster, ("he's going to call that pitch every time Johnny, you have to swing the bat"), and there will be no stalkers in the parking lot.

What if you got a hard throwing kid... the batter will never be able to hit a good fastball at the letters... its just not fair to the batter in my mind.

So let me get this straight: you call the strike zone by the book and age- and league-appropriate, and you get outs faster, and that's UNFAIR? To whom? Do you think umpires ought to ensure as many hits as possible in the game? Do you adjust your strike zone to every different kind of pitcher so that batters have a better shot at 'em?

Tuss I will usually take off my mask when I discuss anything with a manager. I have heard stories of guys having players/managers ripping the mask off themselves when things turn sour. Plus it makes sure that everyone knows you addressed the situation.

So if a hard thrower throws a changeup knee high on the inside corner on an 0-2 count you call that a ball too, because it's not fair to the batter? Be fair to the pitcher. Any part of the ball goes through any part of the zone and it's a strike. That makes the zone about 2 inches bigger on all sides and particularly for 12's.

Now I know what the b*tch was b*tching about. You have a hitter bias. Any chance her son was a pitcher, or catcher?

A good fastball above the belly button should be MEAT to a good 12 year older hitter. Call it if they don't swing at it. Coach of the offensive team will be hollering "you gotta crush that pitch Johnny".

A pitch at the letters is too high on most uniforms.

I am not going to address what should be called for what age group. Simply put, the younger the players, the larger the zone I call. Stomach high and 2 ball's width around the plate.

TussAgee11, whatever your strike zone was, as long as you were calling it for both teams, that's the zone for today.

When the coach started in with "I don't know where he's gonna call a strike for you today", you did right in addressing the coach. When he said "I just want a shoulder to knee strike zone thats all", was your signal to tell him to stay out of your strike zone.

As far as the parking lot goes, this is why in my area we say "pay before the game". The TD can get off his fat a$$ and get to the field a little earlier!

Dealing with Mommies:
So the lady comes to my car and starts yammering. I interrupted her momentarily and said, "I wish to get changed now". At this point, I proceeded to drop my pants and then my Under Armor tights. to her shock, I continued to remove my Under Armor top and dry myself off. I never missed a beat and had the usual post game discussion with my partner. In other words, I totally ignored her until I was dressed. I was surprised that she was still there trying to get her complaint in. I closed my trunk, and said good-by to my partner. As I passed her she said "I have a few things to tell you" to which I said, "Ma'am, I have only one woman in this world that I have to listen to and she is waiting at home for me right now!" I excused myself and drove off leaving her standing there.

As you all know, I don't care! I a woman wants to stand there while I "drop-trou" fine with me! I am too far in years to run and hide or delay my changing in my "private locker room". I try not to be crass or belligerent to the "fans" that may come to see me after a game. It's not their fault, it is society that allows this.

Oh . . . my. With your permission, Ozzy, that one goes in the permanent file. :D

DG, yes, I will call a good changeup that passes through the strike zone a strike, no matter where it is.

If the age group is at the age where kids can throw hard, then inches above the belly button should not be a stike (with respect to the distance they are away from the plate, 65mph at 50 feet is throwing pretty hard)

A good fastball above the belly button is not "MEAT" to any hitter. And its not a strike in accordance with USSSA baseball rules which uses the MLB book.

If you want to go by the book, don't call it a strike. Thats the fairest thing to do, no?

Could you post that strike zone rule here for me Tuss? My Sporting News edition of the Official Baseball Rules(2006) says different. It's got a picture and everything. It sure looks like the top of the zone is above the belly button to me(especially for 12 year olds).

My Sporting News MLB book says the top of the strike zone is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants. The belly button is just above the uniform pants and considerably South of the horizontal line just described.

The last 12 year old league I coached in was very competetive and if you threw too many pitches just above the belly button you wouldn't last long on the mound.

Hahahahaha,
 

Tuss, obviously under the influence of LSD noted:

"If the age group is at the age where kids can throw hard, then inches above the belly button should not be a stike . . . "

What a crock of $h1t!

You have taken the responsibility of equalization of offense and defense.

Sad, just sad!!!

Umpire the game don't coach it!

What a worthless thought of umpiring.

Regards,

TussAgee11:

It is obvious from this post (and others you have made) that you have very limited umpire experience, if any at all, and appear to be making posts to irritate those on this board who take umpiring seriously......oh my God, I may have just discovered.......dare I say it......a Troll :eek:

12 year olds? Why ISN'T that a strike?

Maybe you ought to read the rule book again.

Agreed. Kids this age have a hard time getting it OVER the plate, let alone in that bread-box zone. IMO, my zone is a little taller for that age group than my varsity.

Let's get over the 12 year old thing. One of the NCAA points of emphasis this year was to call the high strike. There is a video on it. A pitch that is not too far above the belly button is an easy call.

If you are serious and want to improve, here are some rules to follow, many already suggested by previous posts:
1) get paid before the game
2)when a coach complains about balls and strikes, loud enough for you to hear it,first look directly at him and let him know you hear him with a direct stare. My experience is they will hide right away. If he tries the old trick of asking the catcher where it is, or commenting about your zone, he has now carried on too much. Call time and tell him this is his warning for arguing balls and strikes. Write it down on the lineup card. If he makes any comments from there on, that are audible to the crowd, he has ejected himself.
3) don't think, call strikes
4) Your partner should never leave before you for this exact reason. If you are approached, simply tell them the game is over and have no interaction at all. Believe me, this will come back as you cursed, admitted to cheating, and were intoxicated. Never talk to fans!

And how many MLB umpires call a midpoint between the shoulders and belt a strike?

How many good umpires really call it a strike? Belly button, maybe, but when you start getting into the mid point between shoulders and belt with kids that can throw 65-70 from 50 feet, it should be a ball. Its the equivlent to 90-95 at 60 feet, where the umpires call it a ball.

So what makes this any different?

And don't go calling me a troll.

MLB has, for the past three or four years, been instructing the umpires to raise the zone, and for the most part, they have. Most have not gone as far as the rule book, but just seeing it called once is awhile is a drastic change from the past.

However, is it your contention that you should call the zone that MLB umpires call when you are working 12 year olds?

It is to laugh. You've been watching too much LLWS TV coverage. It is NOT the equivalent of 90-95 mph. It is 65 mph. 65 mph pitches do not cross through the strike zone at near the speed of 95 mph.

I dunno, 12 year old vs 30 year old? Pro ball vs LL. They look the same to you? Really? Well then, let's get rid of the safety rules and start taking out catchers.
Wouldn't dream of it. Trolls know better when they post something stupid.

Yes, the ball is not passing through the zone at 95 mph. But it has the same reaction time for the batter as 95mph. If you disagree with that, then I'll do some simple algebra for you.

I've called 3 years of ball now, and have called that high strike for plenty of games, and gotten alot of crap for it, both from fellow umpires, assignors, coaches and players.

Nobody is happy when I call it, and it just creates headaches. I don't care what coaches/players/fans think, but I do care what evaluators and fellow umpires think.

So I choose not to call it. I'm surprised to find out so many umpires would call such a high zone.

If you believe that, you need remedial math.

First of all, balls do not have reaction time, batter's do. But, go ahead, Mr. Wizard, educate this poor soul on how a ball traveling at 65 MPH through the strike zone offers a batter the same time to react as does a ball traveling 95 mph.

Of course, what you are referring to is the line you hear on TV about the amount of time the ball takes from the pitcher's hand to the plate. But this is not the "reaction time."

You may be a wonderful third year LL umpire. But with your current mindset, that's exactly where you will be three years hence.

Is this what you do when you walk on the field - use algebraic equations to figure the strike zone for today? Just get in there and start calling strikes!

:D Three years, huh?:rolleyes: Sonny, I've got a rash from my jock that is older than that. Who gives a darn about the crap? When you set the zone, that is the zone. When they start crying, you have to start dumping!

If your evaluators and assigners are breaking your balls over a letter high strike to 12 year olds, then guess who needs to be replaced?

Stupid move. You start with the zone for the level of ball you are doing. You cannot call an MLB zone to LL players - plain and simple. We've been explaining that to you, but you will not listen! Now before you answer, pick up a LL rule book, a FED rule book, and NCAA rule book and then the OBR. Look at and compare the strike zones in each (Section 2). Use your algebra if needed to figure out the top end of the zone. Then you may come back to us with an informed answer, Sonny!

Tuss:
 

I have no idea if you are attempting to pull our collective leg or not.

All levels from MLB down through high school have made it obvious in the last four years that they want the "high strike" called . . .

Someone here mentioned the sternum . . . many of my partners talk of "below the elbows" . . . some use the bottom edge of lettering on the uniform top.

NONE of the umpires I work with call the "OLD" strike zone of barely above the belt.

We have worked hard at making the changes that the game requires and decision such as yours set "the next umpire" that works your teams up for failure.

Please, leave faulty science for the "Mythbusters" and call the game as it is meant to be called.

Regards,

Garth, Garth, Garth... why the hostility?

I think we can all agree that we all call the accepted or expected strike zone. This zone is different in all areas of the country and is also different at different levels of play. While I agree that in LL, the zone should be much bigger than in big boy ball, your ideas of reaction time are just plain wrong!

A 95 mph fastball is traveling 139.333 ft/sec. From a distance of 60.5 ft, the batter has about .434 seconds to react and hit the ball.

A 65 mph fastball is traveling 95.333 ft/sec. From a distance of 46 ft, the batter has about .483 seconds to react and hit the ball.

This is not the batters "reaction time" but it is the amount of time the batter has to react to the pitch.

I concede that the MLB fastball is traveling through the zone faster, but both pitches reach the zone at almost the same time, a difference of .049 seconds.

You seem to have a lot of good information to share. But you also seem to get annoyed easily when someone disagrees with you. Then you proceed to belittle and brow-beat. That's a shame.

If ya'll are so convinced that it is best to call that midpoint between shoulders and belt a strike, then I'll call it.

I know the rulebook says it, I just thought it was accepted by umpires to not call it. One of those things that we just don't call.

Like I said, I've rarely seen my partner go as high as that midpoint, especially doing the upper level ball of that particular age group, which I was referring to (U trip has some pretty good ball).

But now I'm in the prediciment of being the guy with one of the highest zones (that I have seen). Should I be worried about that.

I'm not "not listening" to what you all are saying. I'm just trying to understand it and question it so you can provide me with the answers that will get me to believe it, that's all. I want feedback, thanks for giving it to me. Just cause I ask more questions and play devil's advocate doesn't mean I'm stupid or that I am a bad umpire or that I am not listening.

As for Garth, well, CtBlue did the math for me, so I won't have to.

Well, one of the largest (widest) strike zones in recorded LL history made it all the way to the LLWS this year, so what's to worry about? :D

12 YO batters should not be 'working walks', as a general rule. I hesitate to say 'make 'em swing the bat', cuz you aren't MAKING them do anything, but their mindset should be in that direction. 2 or 3 batters walk on a MLB-size strike zone, and then *every* subsequent batter keeps his bat on his shoulder. Not good.

I recommend that anything at the lower part/half of the uniform logo should be the top of your zone. Just my opinion.

You may not be able to make them swing the bat, but your strike zone should certainly suggest the hell out of it!:D

LMAO.....:D

\


usually after 2 called strikes, the coach (s) and parents suggest it for me :D

"what ya waiting for, son?!?!"

And how many MLB players did you have in that game?
What makes this different is that these are 12 year-olds, and even their coaches want 'em to swing the d@mn bat.
Rule book says this is a strike, both sides want it [when they're in the field], and NO-ONE will pi$$ and moan if you call it: so what, exactly is the justification for it "ought" to be a ball?

I know the math, and as CT pointed out, I also know the difference between reaction time and total pitch time.

You'd do well to deal with reality and forget what you hear during the broadcast of the LLWS.

No hostility, just complete frustration with someone who allegedly has skill and potential but absolutely no common sense or feel for the game.

It's just a verbal slap up against the side of the head and a loud "wake up you idiot, you're supposed to better than this."

Or, maybe his mentor was mistaken. I hope not.

Yes it does matter!
 

Yes if in your level of ball and area you have a higher zone than everyone else you probably need to talk about it with your group of umpires.

Consistency is what matters the most. (and its also important in a grouop of umpires that are calling a particular league)

And that's what players and coaches remember.

I'm not in the habit of calling a high strike, but in every game that I call after a couple of innings i hear no complaints - just he hasn't called that all night so don't expect it now etc.,

Thanks
David

Stand facing a mirror. Take your right hand and grasp your left elbow and then take your left hand and grasp your right elbow. Any pitch across the plate below your arms in this position is a strike, all age groups. That's a high strike and according to Ted Williams he would bat .350 if you consistently threw him that pitch. At the belly button and one ball above or below he would bat .400. So you are cheating the pitcher to not call this a strike?