Balk
 

Last night in the Astros v Cardinals game, a Redbird doubled. Andy Pettitte - standing on the rubber - threw to first to appeal a baserunning error. Angel Hernandez called a balk and advanced R2 to third. Andy - off the rubber - next threw over to first, and Angel said nothing.

I think he was just half right.

Any comments?

The second half (saying nothing) was right.

Whether the first half was right or wrong depends on why the balk was called.

I'll play.

I'm guessing Carl thinks that Hernandez was wrong to call the balk, since Pettitte was throwing to first in order to make a play, which is the allowable exception to the rule prohibiting a throw to an unoccupied base.

I'm not taking a stand on that issue, other than to observe that the customary way for this play to unfold is for F1 to step off before throwing to a base for an appeal.

When Pettitte threw over the second time, the defense had lost their right to appeal the possible base-running error by screwing up the first attempt, and Hernandez made no call. I'm guessing that Carl thinks that this call was correct, or at least correct given the first call.

Carl, you know where to send my prize. ;)

Well, i know in Canada anyway, an APPEAL is not a play, so he would not have been throwing over for the purposes of making a play.

Further thinking,
I would say this is the case everywhere, since you can repeatedly appeal, multiple runners, same runner different bags ... and once there has been a pitch or play you lose the right to appeal. Therefore an appeal is not a PLAY. Therefore he did not throw to an unoccupied bag for the purpose of making a play.

I'll take a stab at it....

Since Petitte did not step off the rubber, he balked because he threw to an unoccupied base (Ofcourse there was no runner attempting to go to first base at the time he did this). Because he did not step off the rubber, the throw to first base is considered a PLAY rather than an appeal attempt. Thus, he can not make another appeal because there was a "pitch, PLAY or attempted play" that already occurred. That's why Angel said nothing when Pettitte, who this time stepped off the rubber, threw back over there again.

From the MLBUM:

It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)

Haven't seen the video.

Now either AH blew it, or called it for some other reason, such as Pettitte's foot passed behind the rubber.

Why is it that AH's name comes up so often on apparently botched calls?

Thanks Rich. I should have know better than to stick up for AH ;)

Didn't see it but ...
 

Seems that Hernandez simply blew it the first time. Unless he did something rediculous no balk should have been called.

Since a play was made the second attempt was correct to be ignored.

Thansk
David

A quick question Rich - Am I the only one who thought that a pitcher has to step off the rubber in order to make an appeal? Most of us do not have the MLBUM so if you did not show us that, my explanation would have been correct.

I just saw the video and that's what the announcers were also saying (ofcourse we all know that's not worth much). The batter also pointed at Pettite as soon as he did it as did AH who pointed at him as well, then called time and pointed the runner over. Then when Pettitte tried to do it the "correct" way, AH simply shook his head as if to say No, you can't appeal it now/again".

Perhaps AH missed that paragraph in the MLBUM and if that interpretation is not written anywhere else, we all would have ruled it the same way. What do you guys think?

Snotty Canadian comment aside, ordinarily you're right about an appeal not being a play. But as Rich Ives's post indicates, pro instruction is to treat a missed-base appeal as a play for the purpose of enforcing the balk rule.

I doubt, however, Andy Pettitte knew that.

Actually, it was not a snotty canadian comment, Baseball canada has Defined a play in it's own rules separate to OBR. That is why I said my opinion was based on Canadian rules, As we since have seen MLB has a different stance. In Canada it would have been a Balk. Sorry but bringing up Canada is like Fed or OBR. So put that in your pompous U.S. A$$. :D

I have not seen the video, so I have no comments on the merits of Mr. Hernandez's balk call.

I'll add:

"If there is a runner, it is not a balk when the in-contact pitcher throws to an unoccupied base to appeal...If the defense insists on appealing even though the appeal cannot be upheld due to some rule, it is not a balk (for throwing to an unoccupied base). However, if there is a runner, a balk could occur for some other reason during this attemp to appeal." J/R Manual, pg. 39 (1997 ed.). (emphasis added)

Sal: You also don't have the BRD because that is covered, of course, in my book.

Before making an appeal, the only reason the pitcher needs to go to the pitcher's plate is when the ball is dead.

This ball never became dead, clearly, or Angel could not have called a balk at all.

Andy didn't need to KNOW anything except he wanted to appeal. He did, properly, and if Angel balked him for throwing to an unoccupied base, he will have heard about long before now.

I plan to email the union office and get their (Rick Roder's) take on this.

As someone pointed out, it's almost always best to think Angel blew it.

Then I guess we can add (if it already isn't in there) that a pitcher must step off the rubber before he throws to make an appeal to the 25 Common misconceptions of Baseball (ie hands are part of the bat, tie goes to the runner, etc)

Yep. Only I thought it was 40. (Jim Booth, eTeamz)

I don't know if you're the only one, but I don't think MLBUM is needed to make the correct ruling (although it clarifies the issue, I agree).

The "an appeal is not a play" statement only applies for the purposes of making subsequent appeals. Withou it, a team would be forced to only make one appeal. For all other rules (balks, for example) an appeal is a play (except, apparently, in Canada).

It's in the AR to 7.10.


If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

AH must have had some reason for calling the balk. I can't imagine that he would have thought they weren't throwing to first for an appeal considering Belliard was already standing on second.


Tim.

I find it entirely believable that Angel called the balk under the mistaken understanding that a pitcher can't throw to an unoccupied base from the rubber in order to make an appeal. It wouldn't be the first, or even the most egregious rule misinterpretation Angel has made.

Meknows you are incorrect. Rule 7.10 says "An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."

Okay, like always, I'll do your homework for you...
 

As far as making an appeal from the pitcher's rubber, it is not a balk to throw to a base for an appeal in all 3 major codes. Both FED and OBR use the NCAA interpretation, so you can't be balked for simply doing what Andy Petite did. Angel screwed the ol' poochie.

As far as erring on appeals, in FED an appeal is not a play as you pointed out. The defense may still appeal after erring on its first appeal. (8-2 Penalty, 2.29.6b)

NCAA is different. You cannot make a later appeal if the ball is thrown out of play on the appeal attempt, or any subsequent appeal if thrown away in live-ball territory and any runner advances.(8-6b-3, 8-6b-5, 8-6b-5a)

In OBR, an appeal is cancelled only when the defense overthrows the ball into dead-ball territory. The advancing of runners has no impact on the appeal.(7.10)

A balk on an appeal is considered a "play" (for appeal purposes) in FED as well as OBR. The official interpretation from Rumble is: "A "balk is also an illegal pitch," so a balk would cancel the the right of the defense to appeal."

You are correct that a balk removes the right to a further appeal in FED.

If the comment wasn't snotty, then I apologize for the misinterpretation.

I looked up Baseball Canada's website (http://baseball.ca), and they do NOT have an independent rule code. The site links to the MLB rules site, and the Microsoft Word document labeled "Canadian Rules as of 2006" is mostly regulations for little boy ball, plus a few interps. That does not constitute it as a distinct rule set: it is, at most, modified OBR.

The definition of "PLAY" that it includes is a standard OBR interp, and consistent with the statement in 7.10(d) that "An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."

Nothing in "Canadian Rules as of 2006" contradicts the standard OBR interp that throwing to an unoccupied base for an appeal IS a play for the limited purpose of applying 8.05(d), and so is NOT a balk.

I believe Carl is correct. Angel Hernandez admitted to making a mistake by calling a balk.

Where did you read/hear that AH admitted the mistake??

From the broadcast from tonight's Astros/Cardinals game on the CW out of St. Louis.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "CW". Thanks again for the info!

The networks formerly known as UPN and WB combined to form The new CW network. They have hundreds of affiliates throughout the country.

Best known shows: Gilmore Girls, Smallville, Reba, Supernatural ( this information provided by my 18 year old daughter)

From Wikiyouknow what:

The CW Television Network is a television network in the United States launched during the 2006-07 television season. It features a mixture of programming from both UPN and The WB television networks, which ceased independent operations on September 15 and September 17, 2006 respectively. The network, which targets younger viewers[1], is a joint venture between CBS Corporation, owner of UPN, and Warner Bros. Entertainment, a subsidiary of Time Warner, majority owner of The WB.

The network began operations on Monday, September 18, 2006 with last season's 7th Heaven finale and then an Entertainment Tonight-produced show entitled ET Presents: The CW: The Launch of a New Network. On September 19, the same format was used with last season's Gilmore Girls finale and an encore showing of ET Presents with additional footage of the launch party from Warner Bros. Studios in Burbank. However, the network marketed its formal launch date as Wednesday, September 20, with the 2-hour season premiere of America's Next Top Model. [1]

On Time-Warner in my area, it's channel 53.

Of course, nobody even noticed the other two were gone!

Very informative Carl! However, I appreciate your knowledge in the umpiring rules arena a little more ;)

Then buy the BRD!

The best thing about the CW is that they brought back Just Legal, starring Don Johnson, which is a terrific show. The WB had dropped it unceremoniously after only 4 episodes, when they had 13 in the can. It was brought back, no doubt, by popular demand. We had a very popular thread at the WB forum dedicated to bringing the show back.

I already bought a copy back in 02. But since I only work NCAA ball and I've been trained on OBR, I really don't have a need to get the latest edition. Sorry :(

But you weren't trained very well in the OBR, else you would have known the pitcher can throw to a base to make an appeal while still in contact with the rubber.

The BRD has 346 official interpretations, 256 of which relate to NCAA or OBR.

You got me on that one!!!

An interesting stat they gave was that in Andy Pettitte's career, he's only been called for five balks. Four of them have been called by Angel Hernandez.

If the other three Angel called were for failing to step towards 1B when throwing there, then Angel probably got those right. Pettitte does that BIG TIME, but of course gets away with it routinely.

Just what I was going to say.

I don't understand the problem. The structure of the game puts a premium on being left-handed.

We used to say that left-handers "cheat." They don't; they simply take advantage of the way the game was designed.

As i've said before- balks in MLB are treated like travelling in the NBA- it's just not called.

Then you get the rat coaches saying to us "but i saw So and So do it on TV last night, and it didn't get called... you shouldn't have called that balk... blah blah blah"

I don't know, Carl. Pettitte's move to first has always looked to me like starts a motion to the plate first.


Tim.

I'm not arguing that his move is legal. I'm just saying it's a left-handed game.

What I'm saying is that, on his pickoff move, Pettitte's free foot lands north of the midpoint between 1B and the plate, and therefore, by professional interpretation of "steps directly towards the base he's throwing to," Pettitte frequently balks on that move. Lefties with good moves generally tend to push the edge of the envelope; Pettitte takes it farther, and gets away with it.

I expect those who are agreeing with me are seeing the same thing. It's not just a lefty thing, it's a Pettitte thing.

The problem I've seen in his move is not so much where he lands his free foot, but that he starts it toward home every so slightly before he steps to first.


Tim.

5 Balks Total
 

It wouldn't present a problem unless AH is behind the plate.

It is a balk if a pitcher:

2. Commits to pitch but fails to do so.

b. Set Mode: The pitcher is committed to pitch when, after coming set*, he shows movement toward home plate. Such movement includes leaning his body toward home plate, and beginning or rotating his free leg toward home plate.

I'm always glad to help you two.


Tim.

Thanks
 

This is the very type of info I appreciate and why I read this website. Now if you wanna inform the MLB umps about the situation and get back to us on why they are NOT calling a balk on AP, then I will sit here and read every word quietly to my self like a good little boy.

No, what I said was he begins his motion by bringing his free foot ever so slightly toward the plate before he throws to first, which should be a balk. I'm not sure why it's not called just as I'm not sure why other balks such as a double set aren't called at the major league level.

We have a different sense of recollection then.

You must have missed the post in this thread where it was mentioned that Hernadez has balked Pettitte 5 times in his career. You also should have noticed that both Carl and Dave Hensley think it's not a legal move. And, you're welcome.


Tim.

Pitchers like Mike Mussina, who's standard set is double are allowed to do it since they do it every time. I have seen the double set balked on pitchers that do not normally do it.

It's usually not a good idea to base your thoughts regarding whether something is legal or not on what AH has balked or not balked in the past.

Nah, Angel get's balks right. Now Balki'n Bob ....

An opposing manager would have brought this move to someone's attention long before now. Makes great headlines on a night before AP is scheduled to pitch.

OBR mentions nothing about requiring a batter to make the ball live. IF it was an (apparent) game ending situation, for example, the offense would not send "the next batter" to the plate.