balk
 

R1, pitcher balks while delivering the pitch (did not stop), R1 stealing on the pitch. PU immediately calls balk and points at the pitcher. the pitch is high and outside. F2 catches the pitch and then attempts to throw R1 out at 2nd. F2's throw goes into center field. R1 advances safely to 3rd. I know this is a delayed dead ball situation, but should the play be killed once F2 catches the pitch or should the play continue?

I think that if a pitcher balks and then makes a wild pitch or throw the play is allowed to continue and the runner(s) can advance past the awarded base (at their own risk) and the pitch is nullified unless it is ball 4 or strike 3 and BR advances to 1st.
I also think I remember an ncaa caseplay where there was R1 and F1 balked on his pick-off throw to first. R1 broke for second. F3 caught the throw from F1 and then attempted to throw the runner out at 2nd. F3's throw sailed into left field and runner advanced to 3rd. in that play, i believe they said that the play should have been killed once F3 caught the pick-off throw and the balk award should be made.
any help clarifying the ruling would be appreciated. ncca and pro.
i also know that none of this is applicable in FED. balk=dead.
thanks.
G

ggk,

It depends on the rule code.

Under FED rules, the ball is immediately dead on a balk - so nothing after the balk "happened".

Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.

I believe that the issue that some posters on this forum have with the concept of "delayed dead" under OBR is that, in some cases, the ball NEVER becomes dead as a result of the balk. What is delayed is the umpire's decision as to whether or not to call "TIME!" because of the balk. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

NCAA is like OBR rather than FED. In your NCAA sitch, the ball does NOT become dead when the F3 catches the pick-off throw, or at any other time during the play as described. Had the R1 been put out returning to 1B or had the F3 made a good enough throw to retire the R1 as he attempted to advance to 2B, THEN you would call "TIME!" and award the R1 2B on the balk.

You leave the ball "live" until you see if the R1 advances safely to 2B. Once he does, you disregard the balk. If the pitcher "aborts" as a result of the "That's a BALK!" call, you call "TIME!" and enforce the balk.

JM

As far as OBR is considered, I would call time as soon as F2 gloved the pitch and awarded R1 second base. The reason for this stems from the penalty and AR-1 listed in 8.05.

"PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.
APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk."

Since the batter did not reach first base, and the pitcher did not throw wild, the balk is enforced.

NCAA rules are similar, but not the same. I would not call time and enforce the balk in this situation in an NCAA game because there are 2 criteria that need to be met.
First, 9-3-PENALTY(1) is the same as OBR in that if all runners including the batter advance 1 base, the balk is ignored (which is not the case in the play above).
Second, 9-3-PENALTY(2) indicates that "the umpire shall call balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield)." In your discription, a fielder has not yet held the ball in the infield (see NCAA RULE 2).

Also, NCAA Rules allow for R1 to attempt to advance to third on this play, and if he's thrown out at third by F8, the runner is out and the balk is still "acknowledged as it pertains to the batter," ie the pitch does not change the count. (NCAA 9-3-PENALTY-A.R. 3)

Hope this helps.

thanks. do you have a rule citation for ncaa and obr? the only thing i could find in obr dealt with a wild pitch or throw.......thx

OBR 8.05 Penalty and approved ruling.

my rule citation post was directed at coachjm.

i tend to argee with ctblu40. unless this situation is addressed in a case play, it appears as if we must enforce the balk and call the ball dead once F2 catches the ball as the criteria to allow this play to continue any further has not been met.

[QUOTE=CoachJM]

Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.
[\QUOTE]

Coach,

I disagree with you on the proper way to enforce the balk penalty in both OBR and NCAA.

First in OBR, in order for the balk to be nullified, both the runner and batter need to advance 1 base. Once F2 catches the pitch, it's obvious that the batter will not advance. At that point, the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the balk.

Under NCAA rules, as soon as F3 holds the ball in the infield the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the balk.

The rule references for both are in my previous reply above.

ctblu40,

While I would certainly agree that a literal reading of the OBR text could lead a reasonable person to this conclusion, I do NOT believe this would be a proper enforcement on the sitch described.

First, in regard to the batter. If the batter does not, by rule, become a runner on the action immediately following the balk (which would require a pitch rather than a pick-off), the bit him about him reaching 1B is not relevant.

Second, in regard to the runner. I believe that the essential element in regard to proper balk enforcement is NOT the "quality" of the pitcher's throw - whether a pitch delivered to the batter or a pick-off throw. I believe the essential element is whether all runners advance at least one base. If they do, the balk is disregarded. If they don't, the umpire calls "TIME!" and the balk is enforced.

Now, I checked the MLBUM and it contains a statement in the "Balk Enforcement" section that says:

Obviously, this supports your assertion in regard to the proper OBR ruling. However, being the pig-headed coach that I am, I STILL think I might be right in regard to the proper ruling on the OP.

Because, the same section of the MLBUM also contains the statement:

In the context of the situation described, these two statements contradict one another. Here's what I think it means.

If the "That's a Balk!" call does not stop the pitcher from throwing/pitching, then the play is allowed to proceed. The play is not killed until:

1. Any runner (including the batter-runner if there is one) is put out before reaching his first advance base.

2. The ball enters dead ball territory.

3. Some other action causes the ball to become dead by rule (Batter is HBP, runner being played upon is obstructed, Offensive interference, etc.)

I am not positive this is correct, but I think it is. I think this, because I don't think it is intended that the defense should benefit from the balk. If the umpire were to retroactively kill the play at the point in time the F3 caught the ball, when the R2 had already committed to 2B (rather than trying to return to 1B) and the F3 subsequently made a wild throw in trying to retire the R1, who made it to 3B, the defense would end up benefitting from the balk call. I don't think that's the intent of the rule.

I'll dig into it a little more and get back tomorrow, by which time I'm sure others will have chimed in.

JM

CoachJM,
J/R disagrees with you. They outline 3 scenarios for balk enforcement.
A) balk followed by a pause: enforce the balk
B) balk followed by a pitch: Enforce the balk unless the batter acquires first, and all other runners reach their advance base. The exception: if the pitch is wild, and all runners advance, but the batter does not become a runner, then "all related action is allowed, except the pitch, which does not count." To me, the exception emphasizes that unless the pitch is wild, the batter must become a runner and attain 1st base.
C) balk followed by a throw: "related action is allowed until a fielder is able to glove and gain possesion of such a throw (if the throw is not wild). The defense is not allowed a tag try of, or a subsequent throw against (including a rundown) a runner before his advance base. If every runner acquires his advance base uncontested, the balk is disregarded".

So the quality of the pitch and throw do matter. And with the exception of a wild pitch, the batter must become a runner and acquire first or the balk is enforced. By the way, their examples shows that a uncaught third strike would trigger the exception, even if the batter is out because 1st is occupied. In that case, if the runners advance, then the batter resumes his at bat with two strikes.

All in all, it seems to me that the offense is pretty well protected.

B Doesn't Count?
 

I thought the pitch doesn't count, so how can there be an uncaught third strike? The batter swings and misses; did I have a balk and a strike? I thought I should disregard the swing and enforce the balk.

SAump-

In this situation, you disregard the balk with respect to the runners, but it is enforced with respect to the batter (ie the batter remains at bat with 2 strikes).

Dave quoted J/R as saying:

I agree that the defense should not benefit from a balk call, and I contend that if the umpire is using proper mechanics, they won't.

If the umpire calls a balk that is followed by a subsequent throw, proper mechanics would prevent the situation you describe. For instance, in your situation, the umpire points at the pitcher and yells, "That's a balk!" The pitcher then throws to F3 on the bag. As soon as F3 gloves the ball, the umpire should be screaming with all his might, "TIME!" and then pointing to R1, "YOU, SECOND BASE!" All the while, the umpire should be moving toward the middle of the infield.

With good mechanics, and a loud voice, the umpire should be able to stop all play.

I cast my vote for "the ball is dead and the balk is enforced when F2 catches the pitch" under both OBR and NCAA rules.

I'll post the section from the MLB Umpire's Manual on when to call time on a balk for reference:


7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the
balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter
and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.
If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play
following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the
moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the
base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is
made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the
catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations
covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time"
the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call
"Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that
situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch
strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to
advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball
Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his
own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call
"Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05
provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time"
until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of
a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified
and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred
unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one
base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all
runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

It's dead when the catcher catches the baseball, as mentioned a few times higher in the thread.

Yep, dead when the catcher catches it. The MLBUM citation is pretty much word for word the original citation from the NAPBL (now PBUC) Manual. It is the definitive explanation on when to call time following a balk call. It's not simple, and it's not particularly intuitive, but it's in writing and it's official.

Unless of course, it's ball four with first base occupied.

The problem with allowing F2 to throw down is precisely that something like the OP might happen: ball gets away from whoever is covering 2B, and the runner heads down to 3B. Now you have to kill it and enforce the balk (since the batter did not reach 1B), which means sending that runner BACK to 2B.

So I agree: call time when F2 gloves the pitch.

Also an argument for really using your lungs to call balks...

Why would the ball not be dead when the catcher catches the ball. All you simply is do ignore the balk since all runners advance.

balk - ncaa?
 

thanks for all of the input.
PRO -
consensus says to kill the play when F2 catches the pitch.

is there anywhere i can get my hands on a copy of the MLB Umpire's Manual ?? thanks.

NCAA -
do all agree that play is allowed to continue b/c F2 is not in the infield (per ctblu 40's early post)?

Since when is the ball dead when you ignore a balk? If you are ignoring the balk since all runners advance on ball four, then the ball remains alive. What makes you think the ball is dead because of ball four???:confused: :confused: :confused:

Because the first four words in the penalty read THE BALL IS DEAD.

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

No. The NCAA rule is the same as OBR on this issue.

bob jenkins stated
No. The NCAA rule is the same as OBR on this issue.

but what about ctblu40's post..........

"NCAA rules are similar, but not the same. I would not call time and enforce the balk in this situation in an NCAA game because there are 2 criteria that need to be met.
First, 9-3-PENALTY(1) is the same as OBR in that if all runners including the batter advance 1 base, the balk is ignored (which is not the case in the play above).
Second, 9-3-PENALTY(2) indicates that "the umpire shall call balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield)." In your discription, a fielder has not yet held the ball in the infield (see NCAA RULE 2)."

to me this says to allow play to continue on a pitched ball caught by the catcher as he is not in the "infield". as opposed to a balk on a throw to first where F3 catches the ball - that you would kill when he caught it.

do you have a citation to support your assertion? i just want to get this right in my head.
thanks.

The rule he cited includes some preamble to the effect "if F1 throws wild..."

In the OP, F1 did not throw wild.

Just so everyone knows, I think I'm leaning towards Bob's thinking here.
The exact quote from the 2006 NCAA book is as follows.

9-3-PENALTY(2) If a balk is immediately followed by a wild throw by the pitcher to a base that permits runner(s) to advance to or beyond the base to which that runner is entitled, the balk shall be acknowledged. The umpire will call the balk in the usual manner, but shall not call "Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and/or a fielder is in posession of the ball in the infield).

Another consideration I have made since my original post is that NCAA 9-3-PENALTY(1) says:
"If the balk is immediately followed by a pitch that permits the batter and each runner to advance a minimum of one base, the balk is ignored and the ball remains live."

Clearly, the NCAA rules are making a distinction between a throw to a base and a pitch. I stand corrected with regards to the proper ruling under NCAA rules... thanks BOB. ;)

Sorry, Coach. Time is called and the balk enforced when the catcher catches the ball.

Edited to add: Oops...I didn't read page 2 before posting to your comment. I hadn't yet seen that several folks had already corrected you.

FYI. It's like a penalty flag in football. You just pick it up and stick it in you back pocket. There is nothing wrong with calling "TIME" the instant the catcher gloves the ball in this situation. Go back and read the post by bossman 72 on page 1. Perhaps the pitch was a check swing.

If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.

(5)If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Notice the exception. You do not call time on ball four when runners are forced due to the batter becoming a runner. To do so would be playing the 10th man on defense should a runner attempt to advance beyond the base to which he was forced. Do you call time every time the catcher wants to throw the ball back to the pitcher? I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely pointing our you're wrong in your interpretation.



Tim.

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction.

No, it doesn't say not to call time. It also doesn't say to call time in many other situations. That doesn't mean that it's your perogative to call time at will for no justifiable reason. This discussion has centered around your assertion after Steve said the ball remains live with first base occupied, that the ball should in fact become dead on ball four when the pitcher balks. We weren't discussing runners on first and third to my knowledge, only a runner(s) who would be forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner on ball four. Therefore, your first and third analogy is seriously flawed as it relates to this discussion. When the interpretation says the play proceeds, it means just that. The ball must remain live allowing all play to continue until there is just cause for it to become dead.

Tim.

FWIW, I agree with Tim's reading of this rule. That is, if everyone (BR and all Rs) advances as a result of the play, keep the ball live. If anyone doesn't advance, then kill the ball.

If you want to argue the rule, please do so without getting personal. I removed a couple of "shots" from recent posts -- I hope I won't have to do so again. (And that paragraph is not directed only at PWL.)

My example said a runner on first. At no time did I say "first and third." I was only explaining that you don't kill the ball on ball four if all runners advance 1 base. In these situations on ball four, the ball remains alive: R1, R1 and R2, R1, R2, and R3. In any other case, the ball is dead as it states in the rules (8.05 Penalty).

Let's review:

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Now, in conclusion:

1) the word "unless" means that everything written before it is not applicable in the exceptions that will follow.

2) a "base on balls" and "all other runners advance at least one base" are the items which are the exceptions that make everything prior to the word "unless" not applicable in this particualr situation.

3) because these exceptions were met, the "play proceeds without reference to the balk. This means that the play proceeds, which would be impossible to occur unless the ball remains alive, as is stated right there in 8.05 Penalty, by the very definition of the word "unless." The ball is dead unless.

I hope this has cleared it up for you.

Is It Live Or Memorex..........
 

FWIW, the ruling also includes HBP. Are going to keep the ball alive then. The play shall proceed unless. That is the problem I have with the ruling. If a ball is put in play, I can certainly agree with what it says. I just feel you are giving the defense the opportunity to make a play when they have erred. If I don't read it the way you read it, sorry.

PW,

On a HBP, the ball is always dead. Ball four usually has the ball alive when it's called. I'm not talking down to you, I'm telling you the proper way to rule on the play. Bob told you, Tim told you, now I'm telling you. But you still want to argue about it. The play proceeds. If it's a HBP, the play proceeds as normal, which is that the ball is dead. If it is a base on balls, the play proceeds as normal, which is the ball is alive.

What if the catcher saw the runner round 2nd base hard, threw there, but threw the ball away into center, and thus allowed a run to score on the error. If you kill the ball when the catcher catches it, you have now deprived the offense to take advantage of the defense's mistake.

It isn't that you don't read it the way I do, it's that whenever advice is given to you, instead of just saying, "thank you for explaining it to me," you always take offense and think somebody is out to get you. I explained the reason that the ball is not dead as clearly as I can. You continue to argue after being told by several people that you are wrong.

You aren't just wrong a little bit, like because of the way something is worded doesn't match. You are wrong because you have a wrong concept of the proper ruling.

I sure hope my post doesn't need editing just for pointing out that you are wrong in this case. There is nothing personal meant in any way by my pointing this out.

The exception does not include a HBP because obviously a HBP is an immediate dead ball. It's right there in black and white on your computer screen. I don't understand how you can possibly be reading it any other way. I'm not sure how you can be giving the defense the opportunity to make a play. It's an award, and a base on balls in OBR is a live ball award. I would think that what you're doing by killing the ball is depriving the offense an opportunity to attempt to advance.



Tim.

For the record.... I wrote this. I like when I can get a better understanding of the rules which sometimes means I eat crow... :(

What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home? This causes the runner to feint back to first, but the hit and run is on so he takes off for second. Because of the balk the runner gets a bad jump and tries to avoid the tag and inadvertently slides past second. Now the runner has technically gone past his award base. But lo and behold, the ball is still live. So now you have actually rewarded the defense for the balk if the pitch was ball four.

I take the rule to read that you leave the ball live because the penalty is more severe to the defense. This way the pitch counts and is the offense is rewarded by having the batter reach base. I still can go back and read post #11 that is from the MLBUM and it says to call "Time" on a ball four. It only says to let the play proceed in my opinion so the pitch will count and the batter is awarded first base. A more severe penalty. It also says call "Time" after all action has ceased on a batted ball. Just make sure all runners and batter have advanced one base.

Here is what the MLBUM actually says about this exact scenario of ball four/live ball on balk:

When a balk is made on a pitch that is a fourth ball it shall be ruled the same as when the batter hits a balk pitch and is safe on a hit or error, provided all runners advance at least one base on the play. Therefore, with a runner on first, first and second, or first, second and third, when a balk is called on the fourth ball, the batter goes to first base and all runners advance at least one base. If they attempt to advance more than one base, they do so at their own risk.

Also:

(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.)

(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Didn't the runner notice or hear the umpire(s) screaming, "That's a balk" at the top of their lungs? Why would he try to avoid a tag when he knows he is awarded 2nd base on the balk? He should also realize that if he goes past his awarded base, he does so at his own risk.

We can "what if" this thing all you want, the MLBUM interpretation says very clearly to only call Time on ball four if the runners aren't forced to advance.

You are making it harder than it really is. No reference is made to the balk when it is ball four and the runners all advance one base as a result of the base on balls. You are to treat it exactly the same as if the ball was hit. If you call Time, you are making a reference to the balk, which the rule clearly says not to do.

All of your questions have already been asked, answered, and quoted in this thread, from the MLB Umpire Manual and the NAPBL, now PBUC Manual, under the general heading "When to Call Time After A Balk."

Please, go back and read those citations. They aren't somebody's opinion, they aren't open to variable interpretation depending on how one reads them. They are very clear and very specific.

In a fight between you and the world, back the world.

You can also look to the J/R for this.


Balk Penalization

Umpires are to voice and signal a balk (stating "that's a balk" and signaling by pointing at the source of the infraction with the arm straight out). A balk and dead ball are not synonymous; a balk does not necessarily result in a dead ball (so a balk should never be called by using the signal for "time").

1. If there is a balk followed by a pause in which a pitcher does not try to pitch or throw, the ball becomes dead (but only when an umpire signals such) and every runner is awarded his advance base.

2. If there is a balk followed immediately by a pitch (e.g., a pitcher fails to set before his pitch), then related action is allowed to occur, subject to the following:

3. If the batter becomes a runner on a batted ball or award and acquires first base and every runner acquires his advance base by reason of such batter becoming a runner, then the balk is disregarded.



Tim.

Originally Posted by PWL
What if the count is 3-1 and a lefthander steps more towards first than he does home?

Have you ever really seen this happen? If a pitcher does step enough toward first (for you to call it a balk) and then deliveres a pitch, he will either fall on his a$$ or throw the pitch straight into the ground....probably both.

Quit pulling plays out of your butt.

I wasn't trying to a have fight, I was trying to have a discussion. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that when this does occur, that time will be called every time if the catcher catches the ball and no action is taking place in the situation being discussed. One because play will probably cease, and two it is just nature of the beast

And I'll just say that now I hope you know better than to allow the nature of the beast to take over and leave the ball in play like you're supposed to.


Tim.

When people post the entire interp from the MLBUM, I can see a little better. I was only trying to have a discussion, not what was and wasn't A better question would be did you know what to do before the thread? I did notice where you were struggling with the last time by concept.:rolleyes:

You're welcome. Now don't call Time on ball four when the runners are forced to advance, and we'll know you learned something.:)

The MLBUM was cited in the 14th post in this thread. You must have just missed it before you made your claim. And no, in the 16 seasons I've been working big diamond baseball I had no idea that a pitch that was caught by F2 when the pitcher balked was not automatically a dead ball. The truth is, I'd never even heard of this MLBUM resource. Maybe someday I'll get a copy. Yea, the LTB had my head going in circles until CBfoulds set me straight. I'm happy to learn from others on some of these forums.



Tim.

With that general agreement on how it *should* be called, and recognizing that umpires don't always do what should be done (through ignorance or habit), I think it's time to end this discussion.