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LL Bat Question
For LL guys out there,
Is there any specific rule that prohibits the use of wood bats? I cannot find it. This season i worked with a veteran umpire (30+ years) who allowed it, and didnt know of any rule that prohibited it. Any ideas? |
No, but painted wood bats are not allowed. 1.10
Tim. |
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You claim to be a LL umpire and you don't know the bat rule AND can't look it up? 1.10 The bat must be a baseball bat which meets Little League specifications and standards as noted in this rule. It shall be a smooth, rounded stick and made of wood or of material tested and proved acceptable to Little League standards. |
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I would submit that there are places in Texas where you could find a LL rulebook and figure it out, but I'm willing to humor you. Rule 1.10 – The bat must be a baseball bat which meets Little League specifications and standards as noted in this rule. It shall be a smooth, rounded stick and made of wood or of material color tested and proved acceptable to Little League standards. It shall not be more than thirty-three (33) inches (34 inches for Junior; 36 inches for Big and Senior League) in length, nor more than two and one-quarter (2 ¼) inches for Little League, 2 ¾ inches for Junior, and 2 ¾ for wood-2 5/8 non wood for Senior and Big League in diameter, and if wood, not less than fifteen-sixteenth (15/16) inches in diameter (7/8 inch for bats less than 30”) at its smallest part. Bats may be taped or fitted with a sleeve for a distance not exceeding sixteen (16) inches (18 inches for Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball) from the small end. Senior/Big League baseball a bat shall not weigh, numerically, more than three ounces less than the length of the bat (e.g., a 33-inch-long bat cannot be less than 30 ounces). Tim. |
Well the reason i ask, I note that since alumminum bats came out, i have never seen LL using them. I looked in the book and could not find if they were prohibited or not. I didnt see it until BigUmp pointed where it was at describing that they are allowed. I think its a good thing to ask on the board, as im sure someout there is wondering that same question. It's very little known that one can be used, since almost everyone uses metal ones.
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Tim C, im sick you. Stay out of my threads unless u have something that answers my question. I over-looked that section by mistake, not knowing thats where it would be, after it makes no sense really where they put it, "objectives of the game". after all, the "rules" are not there. Should have a section on approved equipment. anyhow, Good-bye now, delete your post, as a matter of fact, account please :D
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Dan:
Tim's right on this. You need to take the innitiative to learn some of these basic rules on your own. We'll all be glad to help you as you progress, but unless you're willing to do most of the leg work on your own, your rules knowledge won't improve. I'd suggest putting a rule book in your bathroom to read while your answering mothers natures call. At first the rule book can be a little confusing and seem unorganized, but in time you'll be able to claw your way through it to dig out those hard to find rulings if you'll stick your nose in it more often. Tim. |
Im not lazy. I do read the book. Umpires should be encouraged to ask questions when they are not sure. I do watch and learn. I do not like how the book is written, true, but sometimes i cannot find the answer im looking for. So i ask questions!!!
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Tim might even agree
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Somebody who aspires to be a "real" Little League umpire needs to start reading the rules at very beginning of the book. The section titled "Official Regulations" and having sections with Roman numerals is also important; it has gems about pitcher eligibility and remediation that might come up. Of course, Tim has long established that he doesn't care about basic issues of game management like player eligibility, which is why he'd be eaten alive by Little League managers. Quote:
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Finding stuff
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After I don't find the rule in the numbered chapter I expect it in (perhaps 6.00 - THE BATTER in this case), I head to the index. The index, strangely enough, is not at the end of the book, but occurs after Rule 9 and before the section on tournament rules. Of course, it doesn't have an entry on bat, but if you had followed your own hint, you would have found a subsection bat in the equipment section. It points to Rule 1.10. But you'd be excused if you didn't find it; the index is pretty awful too. Full-text search sure would be nice. Now, there are probably copies of the Little League rulebook on the net, but they might be rarely shared, since Little League has strong feelings about guarding its intellectual property. Luckily, Little League rules are derived from MLB rules, more or less, and those rules are online. Hop over to mlb.com and you can use your browser to search the rules. It's still divided up into chapters, so it might take time. The third instance of bat in Rule 1.00 is Rule 1.10. Now, you can't use MLB rule 1.10, 'cause it's not right for Little League. But with the hint on the rule number, you can find the right entry fairly easily.:) I don't know about anybody else on this group, but that is what I do before I ask a rules-specific question on this board. (I never ask a Little League-specific question on this board, but that's another post.) |
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It was suggested that you read the rule book on other threads. That means you open the book and start at page 1. You will find a world of answers in even the LL rule book. There are even more enlightenments in the LL book titled The Right Call. But that would mean that you would have to read the LL rule book first and we see that is not happening. Now, let me inform you about something. If you handle you games like you handle the criticism on this board, I pity your assigner. He will be plagued with complaints about you. In closing, from what I have read of your posts, you have a long way to go to become much of anything. Sorry, but I call them off the field just as I do on the field - as I see them! |
Netiquete advice
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Hardly anybody here is exclusively a Little League umpire, even though Little League probably has more umpires than any other baseball organization in the United States. In any case, while the folks here would rather discuss the arcane NFHS FPSR (which even highly professional and fearsome High School Varsity Managers sometimes don't understand) or the NCAA DH rule (which, I'm afraid, even God might not understand), they know they are in danger of being swamped out by Little League questions. Since many of them are very basic (instead of the intracacies of runner's interference as a recent thread discussed) as well, you'll find a certain resistance to them on this forum.
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Gentleman, I am shocked......shocked, I tell ya......at the reception that you people have given LittleLeagueDan.
From his posts, I have deduced that Dan is but fifteen years of age. Well, I'm here to tell you that with Dan's obvious intelligence, enthusiasm and wisdom, I am sure....nay, <b>certain</b>....that one day Dan has a excellent chance of being sixteen. Carry on. |
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I hardly think that Tee would get eaten alive by any managers, much less Little League managers. I would submit that Tee would send any such manager packing in a heartbeat who got up the nerve to try to intimidate him. I have yet to encounter an intimidating Little League manager. So very few of them have any knowledge of the rules whatsoever, and most wouldn't have any clue about eligibility rules. Every time I've seen an argument about eligibilty issues, they always need to consult with a director or board member to straighten it out. I certainly don't put up with a whole lot when dropping down to work Little League, and I doubt that Tee would, if he ever worked that level just for kicks. |
You've got problems
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On the other hand, I don't know to whom you should report that you can't read. You are misquoting me again. A hint: Dan didn't call you out on your Little League game management skills; LilLeaguer did. Thanks for the compliment on my writing skills, though. As to why you need to bluster about your ability to manage a game in an organization that you don't want to work in, I could theorize, but I don't believe in pop psychology over the internet. In Little League games, an umpire's lack of knowledge about player eligibility may well be critical, and I have known games that went seriously off the rails because of that. Now, perhaps, you could have kept those games under control, but since you aren't even willing to take on the basic responsibilities of a trained Little League umpire, I have to quote Garth, "coulda woulda shoulda." |
There's more
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Paint is allowed
I don't suppose those black bats used by MLB players are grown in the Black Forrest.
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Whats meant by that is- bats that are not painted my the manufacturer
Same way in LL with Batting Helmets- unless it comes from the factory that way, it cannot be used. Im dead sure thats what is being implied. If it comes from the factory painted up, its legal, but it if you buy a bat and dig out a can of paint, it cannot be used (same with batting helmets) Thanks for those people who see both sides of things. I have books, i read them. It is very true that the books (LL) are a little messed around. I pick up quickly on rules, but some stuff is just confusing. Some stuff is very hard to remember, like substitution rules, so if something does happen we have the book.. I dont know anyone that knows the book by heart. Its almost impossible, with all thats in there. |
Just remember
Things would be different if it leads to an unfair advantage. Those manufacturers make a ton of money on baseball. MLB and LL are in business to make money and these rules are made with other financial reasons in mind and can change on whim over time. A six year old girl may want to place a decal on her helmet to differentiate her helmet from all the others. I wouldn't concern myself with MOST of the fine print. She still has to reach first base. I can't wait for those high STIRRUP socks and white cleats to make a comeback. I think it would lower some of the current MLB ERA's. Did you see Pedro cry the other day?
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Nobody said that a laminated bat is a painted bat.
Laminated bats are not allowed. Bats painted by the consumer are not allowed. The rule doesn't mean that you can't use a bat painted at the factory. Some people do paint their bats with regular old paint, right from the can. That is what the rule is prohibiting. That's why the rule said that colored bats are legal. They were painted at the factory, and therefore legal. |
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Game Management
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So I'll put myself in a situation. Imagine that I jump into a NFHS game, arrogantly imagining that I have the skills, and I misapply a rule. The offended Manager comes out, we argue, and when I'm starting to feel intimidated, I eject him. Has that been good game management? The point is, having the guts to eject a manager is not (at least in my mind) the end of game management. The eligibility rules in the book are not the difficult. LLDan will be able to master them in a year or two, if he applies himself. I know that on the field you can't determine where Johnny actually lives or how many innings he pitched on Tuesday, but an experienced Little League umpire should be able to apply the rules to the facts. Next year, for example, I'll know what the pitch count rules are, though I won't be actually counting the pitches. |
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Apparently. the short answer is "no." |
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We all have jobs. When umpiring, my job is "umpire." |
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Colored bats are bats that come from factory stained a certain color (brown or black). Bats painted in the family garage or basements are not legal. Proving the old adage "even a blind pig finds an acorn every once in awhile." :) Quote:
You're 15. Most of us realize that, and are willing to cut you the necessary slack. But you remind me of my own kids when they were your age and learning to drive. When we would go driving and I would give them instruction, which necessarily included criticism of actions they took that were ill-advised, they would get all defensive and argumentative. That's unproductive. If you really want to learn, then you're going to have to suck it up and TAKE THE CRITICISM. The question you asked was elementary and easily self-answered with reasonable effort, and you clearly did not make that effort. We're here to help you with more substantive questions about umpiring. When you start asking those questions, I'm pretty sure you'll get more enlightening and less harsh responses. |
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"Fine, Blue, but I painted this bat in my bedroom". Bob |
Has anyone spotted a wood bat lately in a youth game? If so was it black?
I just bought a lottery ticket and I think my odds are about the same. |
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My comments are that you can become the target of a lot of OOO crap if you get to involved in color, texture and materials discusions with little Leaguers. If a certain MLB owner or large company wanted the equipment rules changed, then the rules would probably change. For example, brand NEW aluminum baseball bat barrels have a coated surface on them that remind me of a sand paper finish. I think it is very dangerous if a baseball is hit with these bats because of the additional spin it placed on the ball. So what if a player takes the roughest sand paper he can find and rubs those metal or wood bat finishes off with it until those surfaces are no longer as smooth. I have seen these metal bats in use at higher levels of play and no umpire I saw ever questioned the legality of the bat. Do you now step in and throw the bat out?
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A scenario
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Coach Tim: I'm starting Johnny at Pitcher. Coach Alan: He's a 12 year old, isn't he? Coach Tim: Yes. So? Coach Alan: Chris, you know a 12-year old can't pitch in a Minor League game. Umpire Chris: Well, player eligibility isn't my problem. Let's find a district adminstrator or something. Coach Tim: There aren't any around. I'm pitching Johnny. Coach Alan: Well, I'm playing the game under protest. You've got a protested game, and the protest will be upheld, because Chris couldn't be bothered to even know a black-letter rule in the book. (Technically, the ineligible pitcher will cause the game to be forfeited. Of course, LL umpires are charged with avoiding forfeiture situations.) Something like this happened in our district at the Juniors level a few years back. There was real confusion about the rules, so the umpire really couldn't have known them, and it became a real train wreck. Given the circumstances, I couldn't fault the umpire, but I was glad that he was willing to learn the rules to prevent a recurrance. Rich, I have a lot of respect for you postings here. Heck, I have some respect for Tim C's posts. In any case, I won't tell you how to work your games. |
Taken Out of Context
I tell you HOCKEY is destroying our game by introducing those HSM. Tell Wilson Sporting Goods that their LL batting helmets used in this years LLWS were illegal. The shiny metallic multi-colored finish isn't SAFE. Helmets must be painted completely in one uniform color with a dull finish, preferably red or navy. Also those air holes in the rim of the helmet allow sunlight into the batter's eyes. This could costs someone to lose track of the pitch. One young man was hit on the chin by a pitch while wearing one of those helmets. Those helmets are dangerous and should be tossed immediately. I saw it on TV during the LLWS.
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I think you have allowed too much LSD to get into your drinking water.:D |
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Rising fastballs should be banned at the youth level too; they're equally dangerous. |
Well, he doesn't speak for all umpires working LL, I can tell you that. I don't know of any of the umpires in the LL association I belong to that would subscribe to his ideaology. If a situation were to arise where a question about a players eligbility needed to be addressed the most we would do is advise them of the appropriate rule. I'm not checking birth certificates any more than I would do a freaking cup check.
Tim. |
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All I'm asking for
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I explicitely don't think that umpires should be checking birth certificates or cups. And, of course, I don't speak for anybody but myself, though I'm relaying rules and responsibilities straight from the Little League book. |
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What you said: "I think the Little League umpire should advise the manager of the appropriate rule; you admit that an umpire might do so." What BU really said: "If a situation were to arise where a question about a players eligbility needed to be addressed the most we <b>would</b>do is advise them of the appropriate rule." You have done the impossible. You got me to defend BU. |
I still can't read
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Given a situation where a protest is imminent, the facts are not in dispute, and it's about player eligibility, I think the umpire has three choices:
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Unless you are running for opffice, it's always better form to not change the statement you are debating. |
Thank you, Garth. Let me give you an example of how a potentially protestable situation should be handled by an umpire.
Coach of team A decides to enter Little Snot Nosed Billy in the top of the third inning. He brings the changes to the umpire who in turn gives the change to the coach of team B. B-coach looks at the name of the substitute and informs the umpire-in-cheif that the sub is ineligible because he was ejected in their last game and now has to serve a one game suspension. Now, the umpires duty is to go to coach A and inform him that the other team feels the sub in ineligible, explaining why, and that's it. The umpire isn't going to look for an ejection report or look over the book from team A's last game. He's not going to get involved beyond letting them know the player is potentially ineligible. If the coach of team A feels his player is eligible and goes ahead and enters him, the other coach needs to lodge a protest in the book, and we get the game going. This is from the LLRIM. Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offender should be notified immediately. Tim. |
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thats news to me
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Yes, and it's twice I've mentioned it now.
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It's my fault
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Russ Paul-Jones (M) |
Have you met her?
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Saw a lot of wood bats this weekend in a youth tournament.
Black, brown, ash. Even one with tape wrapped all around the barrel. Of course there were a lot less bats left at the end of the tournament than at the start. |
ok, enough
Once again a thread has gotten wayyyyyyyyyyyy out of hand. Back to the dicussion of wood bats. :p
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Yep, I'm sorry
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With your correction, I still believe that point 1 and position 2 are more in agreement than position 1 is with position 3. (I could make an argument that adding the phrase didn't alter the logical value of the statement, but you have already rejected my mathematics credentials, so it would be a WoBW. And, of course, you were right.) |
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Like I said, I would take the protest. Part of that process is bringing it to the attention of the other team and letting them deal with it, if they so choose. Where I differ with LLer is this: I will not offer my opinion on eligibility rules nor will I answer such a question, if asked. I'll tell the coach that eligibility rules are HIS concern and it's up to him how he wishes to address the protest. Then, we play. I don't see it as being helpful if an umpire jumps into the middle of something where he has no place. |
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I also refuse to give the count from the bases. I'm so unhelpful sometimes :) --Rich |
Pure OBR (American League)
OK, let me break tradition and ask Rich (and Tim C too, if he wants to unignore it) an OBR question in a LL thread.
I don't know much about real umpiring, as you all make clear. And I know that you're tired of me (though I miss the date requests I used to be getting :)) Carl Childress has an article somewhere in cyberspace about the intricacies of the NCAA DH rule, where he makes it clear that he would explain a rule to a manager. Situation 1: In the fifth inning, a manager wants to move his DH into a position on the field. He asks you how this affects his lineup. Do you tell him? |
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I clearly make a distinction between "game" issues / rules and "roster" issues / rules. |
A curious affectation of my youth
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Thanks goodness that isn't necessary anymore :rolleyes:, but I have kept the habit. |
Great distinction.
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I'm not sure that the line is completely bright, but I think that this is the same boundary other folks are talking about. For example, I believe we've had threads in the past on this site that dispute the role of Real Umpires in the game issue of illegal substitution. (LL-specific content follows) At the extreme end, I also don't involve myself with roster issues; I trust that the roster handed to me by the manager or Tournament Director is correct, and I don't hire a private detective to scrounge up real birth certificates or anything. But LL has some rules that push against that boundary (e.g. weekly inning counts per pitcher, though that may be going away), and I do feel that I'm helping the game along by just explaining the rules when asked. And besides that mantra that Real Umpires umpire, I don't understand the reason not to explain the rule, again if asked. |
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Now, I do sometimes post questions here, but I try to frame them in terms of the interests and experience of most of the posters.
I joined this late but IMO your aforementioned statement is not true. What TEE and others are trying to tell you is this. Do some homework first. Since Dan is young let's put it in his terms. He has an English class and he was told to read Shakespear's Hamlet. The next day the teacher comes in and starts asking questions about Hamlet. Some teachers pick at random. The teacher asks Dan some basic questions about the play and Dan stays silent. The first question from the teacher will be "Dan did you read the play" That is all that is being done here. No-one has a problem answering questions to try and help someone but when it's apparent that an individual didn't take the time to read, that is what annoys people. Here's an example of a valid question after reading the OBR rule-book. B1 grounds to F6, beats the play but misses first base. Question? does the runner have to be tagged to be put out or can F3 simply make a valid appeal and step on the bag. Answer: It depends upon the type of action ie; Relaxed vs. Unrelaxed. One will not find those terms in the rule-book , hence a valid question. Therefore, to sum up IMO posters here will answer anything even if they are not particularly interested in the subject matter, but they also do not want to get "hosed" either when it's apparent that someone does not want to do home-work ala when we get FED test questions posted on this site to help someone past the test without reading the rule / case book. Pete Booth |
Still confusing, I see
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LLDan is the young umpire that posts LL questions on this board. I'm the woman:) who just annoys the heck out of people, apparently. You are free to judge that my questions are not of general interest (though you made a thoughtful response to my last one), of course. |
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Situation 2. OBR (American League) rules. The defensive manager wants to move the pitcher to left field and bring in a new pitcher. He asks you, the umpire, where the new pitcher should go in the lineup. Will you answer? If he asks if the new pitcher bats in place of the DH in the order, will you correct him? |
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......it's addicting, isn't it? :D |
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Nah, I'm taking the under ;) |
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I used a blue ("factory" :rolleyes: ) painted bat in LL one year. In 1974, IIRC. I'm not sure aluminum had been invented yet.... |
Mmmmmmmmm .......................
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awww, you gotta love when others just want to help you out and 'free you from your prejudices', whether you want to be or not :rolleyes:
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Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.....snort......bwahahaha hahaha....cough..cough...hahaha..gag.....clunk!
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Dan, that is damn funny.:D
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:D Good, can we all now take a left turn now and get back in the right direction
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Well, now if you're going to get redundant now, okay.
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ok thanks Steve, somehow a thread that started about bats has ended up in a 6 pages of "fluff" :eek:
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Dan ... you've shown over and over that you REALLY need to read the basics part of the book. Most of your questions about things you simply can't find are in the opening chapters of the book. The ones that deal with definitions, objectives, and basics. The rest of the book HINGES on a complete understanding of these sections. COMPLETE understanding. Not a passing knowledge of these sections. Often, a rule in a section you've probably read 8 times, will not make sense in every situation to which it applies (or you may think it applies in a situation where it doesn't) if you don't have 100% total understanding of the definitions and objectives section. You seem to treat these sections as superfluous - they are not - they are your foundation. Tim treats you with such disdain because you've repeatedly shown a lack of willingness to "get" this section of the book ... which leads to faulty understanding of pretty much everything else. Too bad you're "tired of him", as if you'd sift through the disdain, you'd find that he's been directing you all along toward what you really need to do if you want to be good at this. |
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