What do YOU think?
 

Gentlemen,

For the last four years, at least one (sometimes two) of the baseball teams I have coached each season has been played under the rule code that can be found at the following link:

http://www.dyba.com/pdfs/THE%20DYBA%...OOK%202006.pdf

As "local rules" go, my opinion is that these are among the better ones I've seen. However, there are a FEW things about this paticular set that drive me crazy.

I would like to get input from the membership of this forum regarding ONE of those things in particular. Specifically, my question is, what is the "foundation" rule code that this ruleset suggests - FED or OBR?

If you are so inclined, I am asking you to read through the linked document and post your reply SOLELY as "OBR" or "FED". Please do NOT provide any rationale for your answer. After a few days, or twenty replies (whichever comes first), I will post MY answer and invite any who care to to provide their rationale for their answer.

Thank you in advance for your consideration of my request.

JM

OBR rules.

Hey all,

Fed rules.

LomUmp:cool:

Coach,

What's the age range you are dealing with? (Sorry, I don't remember....need a refresher)

FED Rules

Federation

Mmmmm,
 

NFHS

Regards,

Obr.......

reply
 

Fed rules

with a tablespoon of Little league mixed, and some local weirdness no IFF and a wall at 3rd?

FED rules

Joe

tjones1,

In this league, I've been coaching 13/14 yr. olds. The league has teams that go all the way from T-Ball to 13/14 yr. olds, who play on an 80' diamond with a 54' rubber.

JM

FED rules.

FED, I believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachJM Gentlemen, For the last four years, at least one (sometimes two) of the baseball teams I have coached each season has been played under the rule code that can be found at the following link: http://www.dyba.com/pdfs/THE%20DYBA%...OOK%202006.pdf As "local rules" go, my opinion is that these are among the better ones I've seen. However, there are a FEW things about this paticular set that drive me crazy. I would like to get input from the membership of this forum regarding ONE of those things in particular. Specifically, my question is, what is the "foundation" rule code that this ruleset suggests - FED or OBR? If you are so inclined, I am asking you to read through the linked document and post your reply SOLELY as "OBR" or "FED". Please do NOT provide any rationale for your answer. After a few days, or twenty replies (whichever comes first), I will post MY answer and invite any who care to to provide their rationale for their answer. Thank you in advance for your consideration of my request. JM

I will go with "neither" This league has it's own set of rules.

Example: in the 5th/6th graders you can start the game with less than 9 players. I do not know of any League (other than the Sunday men's league) in which you can start a Game with less than 9 players. In FED you can finish the game with 8 but you MUST have 9 to Start.

I would call this a "house" league

Pete Booth

Pete,

I would certainly not dispute your assertion. However, my question was a little different. Namely, based on your read, which rule code do these "house" rules say you use for the things that are NOT changed by the local rules?

JM

Oh, that's a different question. But the answer is the same.

Quoting from page 3:

"The basic rules for all Baseball Leagues can be found in the National Federation of State High School Associations Rules."

Garth,

Hmmm... I'll have to think about that a little.

Now, I would agree that the quote you posted from page 3 seems pretty straightforward - at least until you get to page 5 and find the following:

Is your answer still the same, or different?

JM

Well, since it seems that it's okay to violate the rules of this thread, and not just give a simple answer with no rationale provided, I will weigh in.

My answer of OBR is due to many Little League rules incorporated in as well as the bracketing being exactly the same as PONY baseball (which I thought was patented to start with).

Both of these organizations' rules are based on OBR, so even though it is stated on page 3 that the rules are based on NFHS rules, I believe the opposite is really the case. I was hard pressed to find anything remotely similar to high school rules within the playing rules.

Like Garth, I saw NFHS on page 3. Now you're showing entirely different base rules. Somebody needs to do some editing.

I saw both the OBR, NFHS, and ASA references - and thusly threw them all out. I based my GUESS (and for any of us this is truly a guess) on the age bracket names which are mimicked after PONY, and I believe PONY uses OBR.

As your question now asks which code does the house set say to use, I'd have to answer: both, however, the reference to OBR on page five is stronger than the reference to FED on page 3.

As for the local rules, attempting to link them to one code or another is fruitless. Just because they may have a similarity to
PONY's or any other league's add-ons doesn't mean a thing. Add-ons are not automatically tied to one code or another.

The whole situation is close to a FUBAR. A total re-write is called for. I assume you have volunteered for the job.

I would submit, and believe I could support a case that, ALL local rules are FUBAR. I've yet to see one that was both A) necessary and B) consistent and complete.

The lone exception is time-limits, which I hate, but can see the need for in certain cases.

Thanks Coach......Fed

What I think!
 

FED Rules

Thanks
David

According to the quotes we've seen, anything related to baseball and listed after page 5 is covered by the NBC. Prior to that, the rules are Fed related.
(Sorry, but that was too easy.)

Anyone else wonder why house leagues typically recruit the lowest common denominator umpire in many parts? (Hey, he has a patch and a heartbeat! Are you available?)

Good luck with that league coach - I'd love to see the technical committee at work.

While the dual references don't make much sense, having to choose one over the other, I read the OBR reference as governing.

My thanks to all who have replied. After Garth's "that's a different question..." reply, I realized that I had not worded my initial question very well.

What I meant to ask was, based on what the linked rules say should the OBR rules or the FED rules be used to adjudicate all the things which are not covered in the linked "House Rules".

As you now know, it says two different things in two different places. (Similarly, for the house softball leagues, in one place it specifies ASA & in another NFHS.) I am of the opinion that the specification of OBR "trumps" the specification of NFHS because immediately following the specification of NFHS as what I referred to as the "foundation rules", the rules also include the statement:

The "DYBA General Rules" is the section that specifies OBR as the "foundation rules". So, I believe that a "literalist" reading of the rules say that OBR takes precedence over FED in the adjudication of the league's games. I also am quite confident that the league's INTENT is that the FED rules be used as the basic playing rules.

While I too have a deep-seated aversion to "local rules", I have come to the conclusion that they are an inevitable annoyance. If they are going to exist, I believe they should be as few as possible and as "good" as possible.

While I have no intention of volunteering to rewrite these rules, I am planning to send a few observations regarding them to the individual who is in charge of these rules.

From a pragmatic point of view, I can only remember two occasions in four years of coaching in this league where a FED/OBR rule difference would have had an impact on the proper ruling in a game situation, so it's not that big a deal.

I was curious to see how the umpires on the forum would read the rules in responding to my question.

I genuinely appreciate those of you who took the time to respond. Thanks.

John

I love the part that describes what kind of blue jeans the umpire can wear. Yeah, that's a real good look.:rolleyes:

For a league that messed up, my interp fit best. ;)

:eek:

FED

I think I liked this one the best.

There shall be no arguments over any umpire decision. Rule interpretation questions may be discussed with the umpire between innings provided both managers agree to talk to the umpire. In the event that both managers do not agree, the matter shall not be discussed with the umpire. Regardless of the discussion, the original call shall stand.


So, if there's been a misapplication of a rule they have to wait until the half inning to discuss the call with the umpire. This makes it impossible to reverse a manifestly incorrect call. What's the use of discussing a rules misapplication if it can't help your team?


Tim.

DO-OVER!!!

Having read these rules, 1 thing is certain... I would never work a game in this league. The rules are just too vague in my opinion.

One that caught my eye was that a manager can't discuss the misapplication of a rule until the inning is over. Although I appreciate the attempt to control the behavior of coaches and the like, what happens if say with R3 only, batter is HBP and R3 is permitted to advance and score the winning run while F2 is chasing the ball to the backstop? The rules don't allow the coach to question this? That's a disservice to the game IMO.


Edited to add:

Tim beat me to it!

Okay, I've read the so called rules and read the posts and have reached a conclusion. Leagues that try to re-write the rule book or combine rule books should be banned for sheer stupidity!

I wouldn't umpire in these leagues either. I couldn't get my shin guards under my blue jeans.

Sillly Steve. The shin guards go OVER the jeans. :D

ctblu,

Oh, come on, it's kind of FUN!!;)

You and Tim have identified my personal LEAST FAVORITE rule in this particular set of "local rules". Except Tim neglected to include the wording of the rule that makes it, in my opinion, ABSURD:

While the second part of that sentence I wholeheartedly support, the first part strikes me as ridiculous. I'm guessing there is probably some "history" of unsavory coach behavior behind it. If so, this rule is the WRONG response to the issue.

In case you haven't guessed, this league has a "youth umpire program" and exclusively uses youth umpires for its house league games (2-man crews). I have become an ardent supporter of youth umpire programs and think they are a good thing.

The coaches in this league tend to be very well behaved (even me), but, in general, their rules knowledge is minimal at best.

In my opinion, this particular rule (which I habitually ignored the "letter" of, but strictly adhered to the "spirit" of while coaching in this league) is actually an impediment to the development of the youth umpires. In two primary ways:

1. They don't get to practice or develop their "situation handling" skills.

2. They usually remain in blissful ignorance when they misapply a rule in a game situation and nobody says anything; this tends to reinforce the misconception and negate the opportunity for learning.

Now I have seen a few of the kids in this program develop into very good umpires and go on to become certified to call High School games. Others have some very basic misunderstandings of the rules even after four years of umpiring in the program. In general, I would say (strictly an opinion, but based on considerable personal experience and first hand observation) that their understanding of the rules compares UNFAVORABLY with youth umpires from other communities in the area. I think this rule is a significant contributing factor to the deficiency.

JM