Coach slaps Player...
 

From the huge LL thread....

I just heard about this on SportsCenter tonight, but I didn't see it. The coach actually slapped his player?

Leads me to wonder...what, if anything, would any of us as umpires do if we actually saw this? Who here would dump the coach? I wasn't watching the game, but anyone who was, do you know if the umpires there actually saw it happen? At what point in the game did it happen?

It was late in the game, in the dugout, the kid dropped the F-bomb, the coach slapped the little potty mouth upside his cheeky little head. Should have gotten a medal, instead got a reprimand, as did the kid. Any further unsportsmanlike conduct from either one of them will result in them getting kicked out of the LL World Series. They're already done anyway, big whoop.

Even with 6 eagle-eyed umpires (no offense to Eagle Eye, who is working the series), they didn't see the altercation, probably due to it happening in the dugout.

If you want to go looking for trouble, go right ahead. Chances are I would not be looking directly in the dugout during a game or situations like this. I am not sure I would have seen or heard much of anything.

Peace

I'm glad I had my coffee before I saw this jaw dropper.

WHY WOULD YOU THINK EJECTING THE COACH IS YOUR CONCERN?

If you didn't hear or see what happened, you can't act on it. More importantly, this is a league discipline problem, not game management.

The kid swore (I'm not a big fan of it, but I've never melted from it either.)and his coach reacted poorly. You compund the issue and three wrongs are committed.

To put this in easier to understand terms, check out that Blue Jays game. The pitcher and manager punched each other out in the tunnel from the dugout to the locker room. Did you see the umpires get involved? How many ejections were there? I love the line in the paper from the team president. He says that no disciplinary actions will be taken against either guy because it was their problem and they worked it out. :0

Agreed
 

WWTB is correct.

Why would ANY umpires even consider involving himself in something in the dugout?

Cripes, work the game you are responsible for . . .

Regards,

The problem is the inexperienced seem to think that everything needs to be ruled on by the umpires. Of course, when it comes to the game, they are so busy managing everything else that they miss what they are responsible for!

I'm with Tee and WWTB on this as well.

When I work a game, my job is to umpire. I'm not the moral police, nor am I there to give a clinic on parenting skills.

My honest opinion, if kids weren't such strangers to the back of Mom and Dad's hand, they would be more cautious with the lingo they use.

I couldn't agree more!

What happens in the dugout, stays in the dugout. But in a game of this age group, I might be listening or watching.

Geez I post a question, go to bed, and get slaughtered while sleeping!! I never, ever said that I would dump the coach. I was asking if anyone would. FOR THE RECORD...I WOULD NOT EJECT THIS COACH! yeesh. The only reason I asked the question in the first place because there was a FED thread on the basketball board that was somewhat along the same lines. But change the situation...coach slaps his player on the mound instead of in the dugout...or what if what happened in the Blue Jays game last night happened on the mound...now what are all of you doing, especially if it's a FED game...

Oh, and Ozzy..I just finished working my 8th year of baseball, so don't lump me into the rookies that you criticize without giving advice on how to improve their game.

Disagree. If sniping at the umpires is coming from the dugout, and it continues after warning to cease, somebody is leaving the dugout. Usually it's a star.

The video clip of this incident (Profanity and slap) is available through a link at the ABUA site, if anyone is interested.

The difference is, I <b>think</b>, that the FED has explicitly instructed basketball officials that they don't want that kinda language coming from the benches. I don't know if the FED baseball rulesmakers have been as explicit also.

This was from a basketball POE in the 2004-05 NFHS rule book:
<i>INAPPROPRITE LANGUAGE- "The committee is worried about inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship. The team huddle is not a safe haven for bad language. Players are not permitted to 'let off steam' by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse."</i>

Iow, in basketball, if the officials hear an F-shot anywhere, they're supposed to nail the yapper. Zero tolerance. If it comes from the bench, both the yapper and the head coach also get charged with "T"s. The argument in the basketball thread was whether officials really follow that FED directive or not in real life.

I'm guessing that the umpires in last nights Jays/A's game were laughing hard on the inside when Gibbons and Lily got into their fight. Apparently, one even got a bloody nose.

Why would you want to toss either of them...its great entertainment!

(I'm not suggesting that what's good for MLB is good for youth ball: coaches and players physically fighting is not good in youth ball in any way, shape or form...but on either level I'll let others handle it. (parents, league official or the team GM/President) ).

Yup.

The other night there was a GREAT block of the plate (that sent the runner to the hospital) and the next day a LL mailing list I'm a member of was talking about how it was probably obstruction because the catcher set up in the baseline. What everyone was missing was that the runner was NOWHERE NEAR the plate. To have obstruction you have to have, well, obstruction.

Umpiring is not as hard as it looks. Watch a game, report what happens. Problems happen when umpires get a "gotcha" syndrome and go looking for things they have no business being involved in.

I guess back to the question(s) at hand..........:rolleyes:

I have never read anywhere, in any rule book where you can eject a "person" for striking at another "person" on the same team. So, even if this slap happened on the mound, I can't find a rule that says "eject the slapper".

Now, if I witnessed a coach slap a player who is a minor, I will be looking for ANY reason after that you eject that coach. Really. There is NO reason to slap a player, ESPECIALLY a 12 year old!!! The coach could have benched the kid, but he certainly didn't need to slap him! So, while I can't per se do anything about the slap incident, I can make sure this coach doesn't argue another ball/stike/safe/out call without having an early out! :)

I REALLY hate ostrich umpires when it comes to dugout behavior. :( I do not go for sniping from the dugout, and profanity that I can hear on the field from the dugout can usually be heard in the stands, which means it is something I SHOULD be dealing with. All the rule books I umpired under this year specifically say to deal with profanity that can be heard in the stands, EVEN in minor league baseball!

So, the kid yelling out the f-bomb is something I should be doing something about IF I hear it. I may not eject that first time, but there is going to be a warning that EVERYBODY can hear and you will find me staring at their bench after close calls after this warning. Yup, I AM looking for trouble over there, and THAT IS MY JOB!

I don't really want to hijack this thread and turn it into a bench sniping thread, because I believe there are other well-discussed bench sniping threads, but, umpires overall at the amature level should be working to make sure bench sniping does not continue once it starts. I have worked college games with guys that just ignore it, and that really irks me! Almost always, after warning a bench about conduct, somebody from that same team thanks me for doing so. This tells me that many players/coaches don't like bench sniping either, and appreciates an umpire with the balls to deal with it.

Since when do you need a specific rule to eject someone?

Rich,

I would respectfully suggest that you DO need a rule; I would also suggest that you HAVE one:

Quote:

9.01 ... (d) Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field.

Now, who is it that determines what qualifies as "unsportsmanlike conduct or language"? Seems to me that's a matter of umpire judgment.

JM

I won't even grace that question with an answer. It will dawn on you eventually. :rolleyes:

So if I hear a coach verbally absuing his players, continuing to talk to them in a negative fashion ("Quit that sissy pretty boy stuff on the mound, throw the ball right!" or "See what happens when you make errors, you've cost us three runs already!") I can eject that coach for "unsportsmanlike conduct"?

Granted, I wouldn't have my kid play on a team with a coach like that, but I fail to see where our rules get into a coaches behavior towards his players, even if it is humiliating them.

This coach is the same idiot who, after George Steinbrenner gave the team $5000 towards their travel expenses and whatnot, tried to hold up George for MORE!! Actually called him cheap, and even brought poor A-Rod into it, trying to blackmail him for cash too!

You were not quoted or mentioned there, tmp44 (at least not by me)! I was making a general statement to the forum. Oh and tmp44, you may have 8 years as an umpire but before you run your mouth be aware that many of us here have a little bit more than you. Personally, I am approaching 24 years, there rookie! Re-read my post to be sure you have the right person. Here, let me provide you with a direct quote of myself :

The problem is the inexperienced seem to think that everything needs to be ruled on by the umpires. Of course, when it comes to the game, they are so busy managing everything else that they miss what they are responsible for!

Now the quote went to Tim C. and I don't see your damn name in here at all so go - and sin no more!

Here's a philosophic question - if the player was slapped by an ASSISTANT coach (which of course does not exist) what do we do?

Let's remember that this is LL, who has some specific criteria in regard to the adult/player relationship. In this case ONLY an umpire would have every right to eject the manager. As far as other youth leagues go - not sure, perhaps others can advise.

As PDX stated, I'm not going looking for trouble in the dugout. If, however this happens in my plain view there is not option except to take action. Some states, such as CA, have specific legal requirements that state certain persons SHALL take action when they witness specific behavior. I happen to fall into that catagory, so my opinion here is going to be biased.

I do not know any experienced basketball official with any sense that is going to T up a coach for something said in a huddle. I do not know any experienced baseball umpire that is going eject someone for something said or done in the huddle. Now you are always going to have the guy that read the rulebook and read somewhere how they are responsible for certain conduct, but that is not our primary job. In this case I do not know that many umpires would have even seen what had happen. Remember this was on TV and the dugout is constantly shown. I would not likely have seen this at all because my focus would be on the field and getting to my position.

Peace

We run back to our dressing room, and change into the uniform of our other sports officiating job: black shoes, black/dark navy pants, light blue shirt with a black/dark navy bowtie.

Then, in our best impersonation of our hero Mills Lane, we yell: "Let's get it on!"

That would be His Honor Mills Lane

I can't believe this is complicated. An adult coach slapped a 12 year old in the face. If he had done it view of me, he'd be gone. This isn't MSBL, NCAA or MLB.

Violence, especially adult on youth, has no place on the field, in the dugout, or just about anywheres. And like another poster here, I would then have a state mandated obligation to report the mf coach to the authorities.

An Assault Is An Assault
 

Would you watch a grown man assault a child on the street and do nothing? Why would you do nothing here?

Nothing. That slap does not exist.

You're kidding, right?

Hmmm,
 

I guess this all comes down to personal philosophy.

ChapJim asks what I would do on a city street (Brad Meyers)? Nothing.

What would I do if it was MLB (Gibbons etc.)? Nothing.

What would I do if it was NCAA (Knight or Kush)? Nothing.

What would I do in grocery store (mom spanking child)? Nothing.

See I don't personally believe "we" (humans) need to involve ourselves in other's activities.

PDXblue brings up dugout activites towards umpires (or I guess it could be bench jockey activity towards opponents) and that is a different animal.

Since I do not work games played by young players I have never been forced to make a decision about these type things -- it would be a hard test guys. A very hard test.

Regards,

Then let the parents take care of it. You are not here to solve all of the world’s problems. When I was growing up, my parents would have thanked the coach for his response if I used that language. If my parents heard me use that language, my parents would have slapped me on their own. It is not my job as an umpire to tell people how to discipline their kids and what is appropriate. If it is assault, let the authorities take care of it. I also have no idea how hard he hit the kid or if the kid was bruised or damaged because of the hit. All I know is I would not likely see something like this because I would be many feet away from hearing and many feet from seeing such a thing. The action took place in the dugout, not in the middle of the field.

Peace

...now what would lead you to believe that? ;)

I really have no idea what goes on in dugouts unless I have a reason. I have only ejected one player for behavior in the dugout:

In 2002, I was the UIC for the NC Dixie Pre-Majors (15-16) State Tournament. Somewhere along the 4th or 5th inning, the visiting team tries a hit and run. Batter never swings at the pitch (must have missed a sign), somehow the runner steals the base anyway. Anyway, it was strike three and the guy headed to the bench. It was a long way from the dugout so as soon as he left my peripheral vision I didn't pay much attention. Next thing I know I hear F-bombs left and right loud enough where I can hear and I assume the crowd as well. U1 and met halfway down the 1B line and my question to him was "Who have you got that's going?" I had the pitcher pegged and he did too. It laters turns out he was berating his teammate for missing the sign but how the heck were we supposed to know that. We ejected their starting pitcher and moved on.

U3, who stayed out of the conference, later told us he thought we were getting the retired batter. Apparently, again out of my sight, he launched his bat over the dugout as the cussing started. If we'd have gotten him too, the game and the tourney would have been over. It was a best 2 out of 3 and they only had 10 players on the roster. Ejected players were out of the game they got tossed plus a one game penalty.

In contrast, I know several years at Kannapolis (A-SAL), several of the Intimidators players were pushing and shoving in the dugout. The umpires got a good laugh and merely watched the goings on.

You may want to rethink your stance on this. I happen to agree 100% with you!

The slap in question was no harder than that of slapping a mosquito. It did not bruise or otherwise damage the kid. My dad would have whooped my behind good for this. My dad would have authorized any adult supervisor to do the same thing. The problem lies with parents coddling and spoiling their children, a trend that has been occurring ever since....well, I don't want to start that argument again. Let's just say recent generations have been way too lenient in raising children, preferring to give them "time outs" rather than real discipline.

I know that it is not politically correct to advocate this coaches' behavior, but I've never been a subscriber to political correctness.

I also agree with Tee, that it is not my responsibility to interject myself into these kind of situations. If it had been out in plain sight, and actual physical abuse (which this little slap could in no way be confused with), then yes, eject the coach and report his actions.

The little brat in this case needed to have his mouth washed out with soap. It's one thing for kids hanging out together in private to say cuss words. That is normal behavior for teens and pre-teens. Proper parenting would prevent the use of this same language in a public setting.

This has nothing to do with what the kid may have said or have done. It has nothing to do with our judgment as to whether or not the kid "deserved it." An adult slapping the face of a 12 year old is violent behavior. If it is committed between participants of a game and witnessed by a sports official within the confines of the field, including the dugout, it needs to be addressed.

Few things are this cut and dried. This is.

Years and years ago, at San Jose's Municipal stadium. San Jose State vs. USF. The pitcher and F3 for USF get into a slugfest on the field. Great entertainment, no EJ's.

Well, that is what makes this old world wonderful, the right to have our own opinions. Nothing is cut and dried. Everyone has the right to feel differently than you do. That is what not living under a dictatorship affords us. What you see as violent behavior, another might see as a horrified coach's initial reaction, one which may not have been well thought out.

Garth,

Your approach to this is wrong from my point of view. This will also not be solved here as well. Maybe you feel this is assault, I do not. We have made every action towards children wrong or against the law. You cannot yell at them, you cannot touch them; you cannot hurt their feelings without being considered violent or abusive. Here in lies the problem. When I was a kid if I did something wrong, my Mom and Dad would have expected a "whoopin" from other adults and I would have gotten a "whoopin" from my parents again when I got home. That is the time I grew up in. We have kids nowadays calling adults by their first names and that does not bother them. The bottom line this is cut and dry for you because I believe you have bought into the idea of what this society's standards which too many have eroded this society. Today we have more kids that committing crimes, killing people, selling drugs and we want to make an adult responsible because he was trying to show the kid some level of respect for what he was doing. We have had kids shoot up schools and had an arsenal for months in their parent’s house of all places. When I was a kid I could not have a lock on my door or a TV in my room. Now parents give their kids cell phones and do not know what the word “NO” means. I realize my point of view is not the norm on this, but I have never been to jail and never committed crimes in my life. I was afraid of my parents and today all the adults want to be their kids friends. Instead of setting standards of conduct, we sue officials because someone threw little Johnny out of a game for conduct which the rules of the game clearly see as wrong. Garth, I just do not buy into this society that tells us kids are equals to adults and have the same rights as adults. Then we hold the adults responsible when the kids act out or do things that break the law but you cannot discipline them without a threat of a lawyer having a say.

Peace

What happens in Vegas . . .
 

Years and years ago, (i.e., back when I was a kid), corporal punishment was not only accepted but also expected as a form of disciplining kids. Not so much now.

My state statute defines child abuse as, among other things, the striking of a child in the face. When I was a prosecutor, I was a mandated reporter.

Society's move towards "hands off the kids" has mixed results, at best. On the other hand, no one with a brain can deny that for years, child and spousal abuse was ignored by society as "none of our business". Somewhere in the middle, there is sanity.

I cannot agree with the philosophical approach that since it happened in the dugout, it's none of my (the umpire's) business. If the kid or the coach had dropped the F-bomb (i.e., "You're f-ing terrible, Blue!") on me from the dugout, you can be sure I would have dumped him- regardless of the geography. I have ejected players and managers from dugouts before. And, I cannot agree that any treatment a coach gives his own player is likewise none of my concern. If it disrupts the game or it is a genuine physical threat to the kid, I'm making it my concern.

This situation, in this game, I would not have involved myself. That does not mean I am automatically disqualifying myself from every situation bearing some cousinly resemblance to this one.

Strikes and outs!

Garth

IMO you're getting too hung up on this. Your job as an official is to enforce the rules of the game. No more, no less. Was the reaction of the coach inappropriate? Yes. But, I would bet that 95% of adults supervising kids in such a higly emotional setting as the World Series would react much the same way.

If I'm working a game and a coach kicks the $#!t out of a kid on the mound, he's done and I'm reporting the incident to the authorities. But a little slap because the kid is spreading F-bombs on national TV? Please...

BTW- Steve,

I'm a younger generation parent of 3 kids. I subscribe to the 'time out' method to a degree. What I mean is when I tell my 12 year old son to stop teasing his younger brother, if he doesn't he gets a time out. But if he is being disrespectful to an adult... let's just say that I've been told that my kids are very respectful...

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

You keep repeating violent behavior... violent behavior.
I guess I disagree that this classifies as violent behavior. The coach did not harm the kid... just put him in his place, and rightly so.

Would you have been okay with the coach making the kid wear a dunce cap and sit in the corner of the dugout with his thumb in his mouth? It wouldn't be violent...

Once again, you see this as a problem, I see this as discipline. This was one slap, not a beating where the kid had to have stitches or a hospital stay.

Many of us had to deal with the same things as a kid and we came out alright.

You call it violence, I call it discipline. Now I always find it funny that on one hand violence is bad, but the same people seem to advocate violence to handle other problems. So either all violence is all bad or there should be situation to situation consideration.

Peace

Okay, but you also employ the rod when appropriate, correct?

I am speaking of these parents that use the "time out" as the only discipline the child receives. And then, their idea of a time out is sending the kid to his room, where the kid has a computer, TV, video games, and all other forms of entertainment imaginable. Where is the punishment?

I could go along with a TO for your son teasing his brother, as long as the TO is in a place that isn't fun. But many parents will do the TO thing for major offenses as well, instead of the good old fashioned butt whoopin' they deserve, because a certain faction in society has deemed it abusive to spank your children. Rubbish and poppycock. Spare the rod and spoil the child has been an axiom in child-rearing since time immemorial, and only since...well not going to start that argument again....has it been considered wrong.

The little biatch slap that kid received can in no way be considered violent, nor abusive. It was a kid getting slapped for being stupid. SOP when I was growing up.

I prefer my hand. It's much quicker than digging the rod outa the crawl space!
I send my kids to MY room. No fun in there, unless of course... oh well...

I'll bet you got slapped alot when you were growing up.:D

No, I actually don't remember being slapped. My dad could remove his belt and apply it directly to my butt in about 1.4 seconds. When I was 16, I thought I was tougher than he was, and challenged him to a fist fight. I lost.

I didn't have too much of a behavior problem, as I learned the difference between right and wrong from strong, loving, Christian parents, who cared enough about me to give me discipline when necessary.

Hahaha,
 

I am not suire which hurt more:

The actual switch when it hit my butt or the 30 mins I had to spend outside "selecting" the switch that was to be used.

I didn't have too much of a behavior problem, as I learned the difference between right and wrong from strong, loving, agnostic parents, who cared enough about me to give me discipline when necessary.

Gentlemen:

I deal with discipline issues with children every day. My second period class last year was known school wide as "the class from hell." I have served in the miliatary and was a police officer. I have seen my share of violence committed by adults on children. In my short LE career, I arrested more than a dozen adults for child abuse. I studied child abuse. I learned how it starts...with an adult unable to control his anger who strikes a child and who finds a way to excuse it, usually blaming the child and then getting others, inclduing witnesses to agree with him. Wife abuse follows a similar pattern.

Dispense of it as you will. "It wasn't that hard", "He didn't mean it", "The kid had it coming". I will repeat from an earlier post. There is no excuse for a grown man to slap a 12 year old in the face. None. Nada. Zip. This is not "discipline", this is an uncontrolled angry reaction. What the kid did has no bearing. Whether or not it left a mark has no bearing. This is a grown man unable to control his anger slapping a 12 year old kid in the face, and yes, that IS violvent behavior. That's why I say that. Grown-up are supposed to control their anger. That's part of being grown-up.

I know this, all a 12 year old really learns from being slapped in the face is that it is acceptable for grown adults to lose control and strike children. There are posts in this thread that bear that out. Those condoing this action are the ones saying "I had my face slapped as a kid and I turned out okay". (The hole in that argument is as obvious and huge as the Grand Canyon.) So we see first hand how violence visited on children is often carried on by those children.

Tee,

We have similar backgrounds. There is a difference between discipline and a slap across the face.

I am confused here....should I have left out the word Christian in my post?

I didn't mean to infer that only Christians love their children, or know how to use corporal discipline properly. I was merely narrowing down a discription of my parents. I'm sure Muslim, Jewish (as the Bible referrence is originally from the Torah), Agnostic, Atheist, or people of any other faith can and do use the switch, the rod, the belt, the paddle, or whatever for discipline. It's just not nearly as common these days, no matter what faith the parents happen to be.

Predictions to locked thread
 

In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 posts . . .

Strikes and outs!

And to put this train back on track
 

The question/sitch/hypothetical posed in the original post was something like this:

12 yo kid in dugout drops F-bomb not at anybody in particular. Coach of 12 yo kid slaps kid in face for dropping F-bomb.

Umpire, what, if anything, do you do about it?

Various answers submitted from "Nothing that happens in the dugout is my business", with which I disagree, to "Mobilize the National Guard" with which I also disagree.

My .02

Strikes and outs!

Well, personally, when my kids were bad, I used to put their hands in the toaster. That'll teach the little sh!ts in a hurry.

Worked for me.

Do I really need to attach a smiley?

Without getting into all the philosophical debates about child-rearing.

If I see a coach slap a minor player's face we have one less coach for the game. For the majors they can work it out for themselves to a brief extent.

Fortunately we don't see too much violence on the fields here. A little pushing and shoving at times, the rare fight.

I've had to break up one fight this year on a ball-field. One kid was 6-4 and a lineman on the senior high team. I was the only one that got hurt.

There is no reason for thread closure. Nobody is arguing over religion here. At least I'm not going to. I have already stopped short of going in that direction in two posts, when I refused to "go there." We are still discussing the coach slapping the player. We have not gone off-topic in any way, so this thread should remain wide open.

We have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes abuse or violence. I say the little slap was a lapse in judgment, not a violent act. Now, if he decked the kid with a right cross, by all means, that is violent, and child abuse as well. What it was was the coach saying, "shut your mouth, boy, you're on National TV." I'm sure as soon as he slapped the kid, he realized it wasn't a good thing. I don't think he "didn't control his anger" as Garth says. He didn't have time to get "angry." It was a knee-jerk reaction of disbelief for what his player just said into a microphone on ESPN. It does not excuse what he did, but it does explain what he did, and he did not do it out of anger.

I disagree
 

He didn't? Do you think he deliberated, considered all the consequences and then said to himself, "the very best thing I can do right now is to slap a 12 year old boy in the face with 10,000 cameras around"?

Strikes and outs!

Ok,
 

SDS let me get this straight:

It is just fine for you to identify (that is a non-emotional term meant simply to identify a thought) your parents as being "Christian" (alluding to, if not more, that being a redeaming quailty) but if I used the EXACT same type illustrative adjective I am somehow criticizing your post.

I simple felt that it should be noted that Christians and non-Christians alike can have the same values of bringing up children.

Personally my views of children were best described by W.C. Fields.

Steve, while our differences in umpiring (and life in general) are very obvious I see no reason to engage you in all statements you make.

Regards,

Obviously off topic here....

The "ignore feature" at this site is a wonderful thing. For those who haven't tried it: When you place a poster on your ignore list, his posts no longer show up on your screen. However, there is still an indication when he posts, in what thread and in what sequence in that thread. Because of this, you are reminded how often you have saved yourself from reading the idiotic thoughts that led you to placing that poster on your ignore list in the first place, without having to read the idiotic thoughts.

Pure heaven.

Parboiled?

Gentlemen,

While I did not the situation in question live or on a video replay, from what I have read of the situation I have formed the following opinions:

1. I believe the umpires acted appropriately in taking no action regarding the incident.

2. I would be happy to have the player on a team I was coaching.

3. I would not care to have the coach on the coaching staff of a team I was coaching.

While I would agree that the player's choice of language was inappropriate, I like the caring evident in his comment. It struck me as evidence that the player truly cared about winning and suggested to me that he felt his team should be capable of producing the one run they needed. In my experience, players with passion for the game tend to be the best players, and that passion is something that cannot be taught. On the other hand, a player can be taught to control his mouth.

One of the things I like about sports is that they provide the opportunity to perform under pressure; often the stress of a situation in a game can cause those participating to perform below their capabilities. But, with practice and preparation and repetition, most people who work at it can learn to perform at their very best under very stressful situations. As a youth coach, I feel that is one of the most important things that my players can learn from participating in sports.

I am a firm believer in the premise that my players learn much more from what I do than from what I say. What this coach taught his players was that it's OK to "lose it" in a stressful situation. My impression was that he was so upset with how the broadcast remark would reflect on HIM, that he unthinkingly lashed out at the player. And wasted the opportunity to teach all his players a good lesson about "grace under pressure".

Now, I can certainly understand the momentary urge to inflict violence upon one's players - with me, it's usually the urge to strangle one of them rather than slap them. But, I've always managed to refrain from acting on the urge, and, with time, it usually passes. If I ever found myself unable to resist the urge to strike a player, I would simply stop coaching. Because I would not be fit to coach.

I also regularly drop "F bombs" while I'm coaching - but I'm the only one who hears them, because they're usually not said out loud, or, occasionally muttered under my breath while I'm in the 3B coaching box.

As in, "Swing the F*&$#ng bat, Billy - he's been calling that a strike all day!"

Which, in the "for public consumption" version comes out along the lines of, "If you see that pitch again, just dump it into Right Field, Billy.", said with the most encouraging tone I'm able to muster.

I think it's a little unrealistic to think kids that age (most of them are 13) don't use that language and, given the context, I thought the coach WAY overreacted. Not that the kid didn't deserve a reprimand, mind you. Not sure what his "MPR status" was, but I'm thinking pulling him out of the game to think about what is and isn't appropriate language would have been more in order.

So, I'd take the kid, lose the coach, & be impressed with the umpires for not getting involved where they weren't really needed.

JMO.

JM

Exactly, and he taught them an acceptable manner in which to "lose it".

In your opinion, coach, were they not needed because they didn't see it? Were they not needed because this event wasn't visible to the public?

What if this happened on a field without a dugout...standing at the bench near the parents and other fans. Do you thinkthe umpires should ignore incidents like this, at this age level, in full view of the public?

No smiley needed.

We all know how much kiddy hands will gum up a good toaster.

btw...I've heard things on the court from coaches to kids that they would never have the balls to say to a real human adult. Doesn't take a lot of guts to slap a kid in the face, or even humilate them loudly in public. If your first reaction is to smack a 12 yo when he cracks under huge public pressure then you're a schmuck. Period.

Garth,

What I intended to suggest was that what the coach did was "unacceptable" and taught his players the wrong thing.

As I said, I did not see the actual incident. From the descriptions I have read, it did not strike me as severe enough, public enough, or prolonged enough to warrant the umpires' intervention.

JM

Could you stop wiggling and answer the question I posed?

What if this happened on a field without a dugout...standing at the bench near the parents and other fans. Do you thinkthe umpires should ignore incidents like this, at this age level, in full view of the public?

Sometimes they are dumb enough to say it loud enough to get my attention.

I had a junior high basketball game in which, in a fast break, a player threw the ball over his teammates head and out of bounds. From across the court, his coach stood up and yelled, "What is the matter with you? Are you friggin' retarded?"

To the applause of the parents of his players, I tee'd him immediately.

Shoe Leather Sandwich
 

You state that your father would have whooped your behind good and proper parenting would prevent the use of this language in a public setting. So when you use inappropriate language on this forum, your saying the moderators should wash your mouth out with soap and spank your bottom.

I GUESS THIS IS YOUR OXY MORON FOR THE DAY.

Please be gentle with your reply............:rolleyes:

Decaf is probably in order here...you've taken the basic premise of this thread and manipulated it to serve your view. The thread asked if we would eject the coach for slapping a kid in the dugout. That is cut and dry. No, most seasoned umpires understand where their limits extend to. In the actual case - a LL game with veteran officials, TV crews and a host of LL admins - no action was taken against the individual.

While the adult's behavior was reprehensible, had an umpire ejected the coach for this action, this board would be alive with laughter. Ejecting this coach would be a mistake - serving as a witness in a criminal complaint would not. I would safely guess that most of us have had a parent slap/spank/hit us. It never was a good experience, but most of us would have been wards of the state by today's standards.

A coach in the Chicago area actually punched one of his players a few years ago. He was not ejected, but relieved of his position after over twenty years at the helm. Both authority figures acted appropriately.

We can disagree all you want about what we would do away from the field, but that is a horrible comparison. I wouldn't tolerate some guy calling me a M-F in a grocery store but I listen to fans do it all of the time when I'm umpiring. If an official is touched by a coach or player it leads to an ejection. Off the field it could lead to an arrest for assault or battery. Let's stick to the topic and on-field responsibilities.

Another member asked if the coach had slapped the kid on the mound would it be any different? If the kid had swore that loud, the coach probably wouldn't have had to come out to accost him. The kid would have been on his way. For what it's worth, I have seen plenty of parent-coaches who grab, pull and mistreat their players over the years - typically it's Daddy manhandling Junior. Just another reason why many of us hate small ball.

Yes, the kid would then field a comebacker to him and instead of throwing the batter out at 1B, he would hold onto the ball until the batter runner rounded all the bases and scored the winning run, losing the league championship for the Yankees and winning it for the improbable Bad News Bears.

All life's riddles are answered in the movies.

The Bears lost when Kelly Leak got thrown out at the plate in the sixth inning. And all the 12 year olds got beer.

What would all say if the kid he slapped was his.

Now Kelly Leak is a mid forty washed out nothing. Looks like the movie had some truth to it after all.:p

You know that this question never was discussed at a round table of professional umpires...until the Blue Jays game of course.

As I wrote earlier, a coach who exhibits bad behavior towards his team can certainly be dealt with but most of us have never witnessed an atrocity worthy of ejection. If you see an assault and want to do the right thing, become a witness for the prosecution.

I once had a Dad/Coach walk out to right field and drag his kid back to the dugout. The kid refused to play right and thought he'd show his protest by trotting out there without his glove. His Dad/Coach realized this after a couple of the guys on the bench started laughing about it. He asked for 'Time' and walked out there...the kid turned white and the Dad/Coach grabbed him from behind the neck and dragged him off the field. It was not gentle and the kid was crying by the time he got to the dugout. The Dad/Coach came over to me and announced his replacement player and told me he would be leaving the park - his assistant would be taking over. The Dad/Coach grabbed his bag and the kid's arm and they walked to the car. I wouldn't have wanted to have been in that house when they got home. Two weeks later, I see the team and his kid is in right field - this time with a glove and a different attitude. Dad/Coach seemed to have mellowed too.

A parent asked me why I allowed that to happen to a sixteen year old kid. Since I was in the midst of stowing my gear after the game, I gave her a curt reply, "That Dad could handle it better than I could and his wife will handle him better that I ever will." Sometimes you have to know when to let go of a tiger's tail.

I like Garth's suggestion...if we all add him to the 'Ignore' list, life may just make more sense. I can't stand people who claim to be umpires but can't argue or defend their positions. Communication is fundamental to our discipline and sticking your fingers in your ears makes you look like a two year old. Learn, do, teach...that's what we are supposed to be doing here.

Supposedly, this is a recent picture of Jackie Earle Haley, the actor who played Kelly Leak.

http://feltupbyjen.blogspot.com/2005...exclusive.html

I have actually wondered if the kid the coach slapped was his own. Would it make any difference in the discussion? Had ESPN not had a microphone in the dugout and camera zoomed in on the team meeting going into the bottom of the 6th none of us would have known this happened. It was not a vicous attack, just a quick slap. The umpires on site probably did not know it happened and if they did they acted appropriately by doing nothing. I believe the coach was reprimanded by LL Baseball and that seems appropriate, but they would also not have known had the cameras and microphones not been on for all to see and hear.

I'll be gentle, and I'll type really slow so you can understand. Try to see the difference here:

The language came from a child. Not acceptable.

I am an adult. Acceptable. Not right. Not Godly. But socially acceptable.

My daddy died when I was 18. I don't need you trying to take his place, so kindly shut up. Gentle enough?

Reading is fundamental.

I am not the one manipulating the topic. I have merely stripped it down to it's nakedness. Is it appropriate for an grown adult man to slap a 12 year old child across the face?

Simple question.

Others are the ones peforming mental and philosophical gymnastics to justify saying "yes." My reply is much simpler. "No."

A baseball uniform doesn't make it okay. Being a coach doesn't make it okay. Being in a dugout doesn't make it okay. Not approving of the child's language doesn't make it okay. And being in a position of power or authority over the child definately does not make it okay.

A simple question.

Can you answer it without attempting to justif, excuse or explain your answer?

Is it appropriate for a grown man to slap a child of 12 across the face?

Let me show you how one answers a simple yes or no question without babbling about why the answer is correct.

Watch carefully.

No.

Your turn. Yes or no.

No. Filling in space so post goes through.

Garth,

Well, I didn't mean to "wiggle". And, from a master of the "one hand clapping" post, no less. I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted.

Nonetheless.

If the situation I read about had happened in full view of God & everybody, without cover of a dugout, I STILL don't think it would have been appropriate for the umpires to intervene. For the reasons I stated previously.

If a similar situation were to occur that was more severe, more prolonged, and/or more public I could see the umpires putting a stop to it, ejecting certain parties (like the "slapping coach", for example), etc.

My point is that if it does not affect the conduct of the game, it is not the umpires' responsibility to address. It is the league's. Of course, at a certain point, it is ANY responsible person's responsibility to address. (See Neville Chamberlain, e.g..)

Ultimately, this is a decision each person must make for himself.

In this particular case, if it were up to me, the Coach would no longer be coaching the team. Nor would he be put in jail. The player would still be playing. He might sit all or part of a game. That's how I see it.

JM

So I guess this means you can't answer the question.

I answered the question. No. It was not appropriate.

Is it as big a deal as you make it out to be? Also, no.

Was it an act of violence? No, ociffer Garth.

Was it done out of anger? Don't think so.

Was it done out of shock at what the kid said? Probably.

Was it right? Well of course not.

Did things like this happen regularly to kids who grew up pre 1970's? Absolutely.

Did anyone make a big deal over it back then? Hardly.

Do you think that the coach would like to take it back? I would bet he does.

Do you think that he is sorry he reacted like he did? I'm pretty sure he is.

Is this really important, when we have American troops getting killed every day in Iraq? NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING THE LEAST BIT WORTH DISCUSSING.

In fact, it is so not worth discussing, that I am not going to discuss it further.

You may safely continue ignoring my idiotic posts now.

Several of us have already given you the very answer you are seeking. JM gave it to you again...NO, the umpires should not have intervened in this case. That is what we are talking about after all. If they had witnessed the slap then they certainly would be justified in serving as a prosecutorial witness.

Is a grown adult man ever justified in slapping a 12 year old across the face? The simple answer is "It depends on the situation." The slap we were discussing was not enough to even elicit a response from the player's parents.

However, since you want to live in an always and never world, my answer would be "Yes". I can think of several incidents that would warrant an adult hitting a twelve year old...in my "abstract world" kids bring guns to school, sell drugs and spit in the faces of law enforcement. But we should coddle them, right?

Sorry Garth, yes it does. But, in the situation we originally were discussing, I agreed with you that the man should probably be prosecuted. I didn't like seeing what happened, but the thread starter simply asked if any of us would eject him. Again...most of us would not.


Your condescension is unbecoming...I am disappointed by your belief that we must comply to your demands. Very few things in this world are that simple. I've already told you that the man should be held accountable. However, yes, there are times when an adult should be permitted to discipline a child with physical means. You have stated that you were once in law enforcement, surely you didn't wear blinders on that job. Bad things sometimes call for usually unappealing remedies. I'm sorry that that offends your judgement, but it's nice to know that you are at least dialoguing with me again. A2D and let's get on with it.

Why?<b></b>

Wasn't as bright as you I suppose.

:D <b></b>

Good Rumsfeld impersonation.

My vote for the most ignorant, self-serving, intellectually dishonest and childishly immature string of words ever to be seen on the internet.

"But officer, how can you give me this speeding ticket when there are troops dying in Iraq?"

"Gee honey, I know you have a headeache but there are troops dying in Iraq..."

"Sorry boss, can't work overtime time tonight. Don't you realize there are troops dying in Iraq?"

:rolleyes:

Un. F'ing. Believable.

With the caveat that I didn't see or hear the incident, I'd answer "yes", it's sometimes okay for an adult to slap a child.

If the kid was mine, I'd applaud the coach for disciplining my child... then I would re-enforce the discipline by:
1) Sitting him for a game (I'm sure LL would agree to this punishment)
2) Making sure he apologized in person to the coach and his teammates for his remark/ behavior.

And to answer Garths question (again), "Is it appropriate for a grown man to slap a child of 12 across the face?"

Yes, in this instance it is. You see Garth, I think you're trying to make this a black/white issue. It's just not that simple. If the kid ignored a sign given by the coach, a slap is not in order. But sometimes physical contact is used (and rightly so) to put a kid in his/her place.

BTW- The coach is retired from the NYPD, so I'll bet he's seen his share of violence as well.

Yes, it is that simple. I've spent years working on issues such as this. I've seen the studies, the kids, the adults.

Corporal punishment is called for at times. No disagreement. But it is never appropriate for a grown man to slap a child across the face. Period. The lesson intended is never the lesson learned.

There are places better designed for corporal punishment and offenses that call for it.

And yes, I know the coach is a former police officer. He should be ashamed. If he were on duty and witnessed that, he would be obligated to intervene.