May I suggest Decaf?
 

If this is not name calling, I do not know what is.

Are you saying that the entire medical community has signed off on these studies? Are you telling me that everyone from the medical profession agrees with the methodology of the studies and there are no further studies that need to be done? These are simple questions, not understanding why these are hard to understand. There are medical professionals that cannot agree on the effects of Steroids and the heath effects on the body, now you want me to believe that a club doing a study changes the amount of disagreement out there on causes and solutions of concussions?

Concussions are more than likely come about when your brain hits the walls of your skull during some kind of head trauma. This is why you see football players with concussions a lot mainly because they are hit with such force, there body is jolted. Many times they come about in football not as a result of the actual hitting of the head, but the way their brain moves forcefully in different directions.

So what you are telling me know is you are a medical doctor or a physicist and that is the conclusion all doctors will come to only because the head is protected. Aren't football players heads completely covered too? Why was Troy Aikman getting concussions every other week at the end of his career? You are talking about facts, but simply having your head covered does not elude you from having a concussion. I was only asking a question so to get clarification if all these factors have been explored. I am also sure all helmets are not made the same. I know all football all helmets are not the same and there are no conclusive evidence as to which helmet works and why. If that was the case I am sure only certain kinds of helmets would be made legal and others would be considered illegal. As a typical internet umpire you took my comments and ran with them. I would ask any doctor the very same questions I am asking you. To me you are WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too emotional about this issue. You claim their are facts and I bet if I went to a neurologist or some kind of brain specialist they might not be so quick to say what you are saying here about helmet safety.

Dude, wear the damn helmet. I am sure you are not going to change the minds of many people.

Peace

Jeff, I actually said I was calling you a name and you say, if this isn't name calling, I don't know what is... What?!?

I believe you are trolling but let's try this one more time. The medical community doesn't have to sign off on anything. We are not talking about concussions. We are talking about the ability of two different protective mask designs to resist, deflect, absorb or do anything but not transfer energy to the head. This is a very measurable effect. Something transfers energy or it doesn't. If it does, how much? You place sensors at various points and hit the maks from all directions. You get quantifiable data as a result and you can determine with scientific accuracy how well a mask protects from the force of a baseball hitting it.

The whole process is not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Biomechanical engineers, et al. have been crash testing cars for years and have gotten very good at figuring out how to make crash dummies replicate almost exactly how the human body responds to various types of impacts. I feel confident in saying this as the National Geographic Channel just aired a special detailing the various types of impacts that different martial artists can deliver. They hired crash test experts (biomechanical engineers and the like) to run their tests. They do impact measuring for a living, every day, and can accurately measure exactly how the human body reacts to impact, whether it be from an automobile or fist, elbow, knee, etc. Measuring a baseball hitting a mask from various angles at various speeds would be right up their alley and just wouldn't be that damn hard to figure out.

Now I am NOT saying that we understand exactly why people get concussions or why they affect some and not others. But we can measure the kind of forces delivered and we can compare how those forces would be withstood by different types of masks. That part isn't hard.

The fact that two independent labs said that the traditional mask and the hockey style mask have roughly the same protective qualities in terms of baseballs hitting them means that the tests are confirmed and reproduceable. We know exactly what kinds of forces the helmets/masks will withstand and how much force will be transferred to the head. What happens after that is not so certain in terms of how concussions happen, their effects short term vs. long, etc.

More to the point, a HSM covers more of the head. If a ball hits the back of an unprotected head, your gonna get hurt. If a broken bat hits you upside your unprotected head, you will get hurt. If you have an HSM and those things happen, in the same way, you likely suffer nothing more than you would if you got tagged with a foul ball while behind the plate, maybe less. Ergo, the HSM is safer.

That's all I'm saying Jeff, the HSM is a helmet designed to protect from impact. Take a foul ball straight back with either a traditional mask or an HSM and you will be protected in relatively the same way. How much that hit effects you is certainly debatable, but the transfer of energy will be roughly the same with either one. And it is entirely measureable.

Getting hit anywhere in the head but in the front is not that common an occurence. But if it happens, you will not be protected with a traditional mask. It is a relatively minor risk statistically speaking, so I completely understand umpires not rushing to wear HSM. But if that statistically minor chance happens to you, it isn't so minor. Depending on where you work, the chances might increase and so for some of us, we choose to wear an HSM (their are other reasons, but whatever).

As I said before, I am not trying to convert you. I just like a good discussion and I want the facts straight. You are under this delusion that we can't quantify the differences between the protective qualities of the two styles of masks. It just ain't so. We can and we have. Straight on hits, both styles offer the same protection. In the less likely event that you get hit some where else on your head (that is to say, the side, top or back) you are still protected with an HSM and not protected with a traditional mask.

Capiche?

Remember you started this thread. From what I understand this was not a hot topic of conversation outside of the "Mask vs. Helmet" discussion that has been had several times on this board. These discussions never change anyone's mind or changes. Obviously this is a very emotional discussion for you.

What does this have to do with baseball and the likelihood of concussions?

Wait a minute; you had all the facts right? :rolleyes:

You obviously do not know much about studies. Usually you need more that two studies and the studies have to use the correct methodology.

You are? Wow, considering I saw a guy get hit on the top of the head with a pitched baseball, he continued the game and had no affects from the baseball.

You are right you have all the answers in front of you.

Once again, you know.

I did not say we could not quantify data. This shows that this is a very emotional thing for you. You sound like you are going to get on a tower and start shooting people because they do not believe in your way of thinking. Relax man, it will be OK.

Peace

I can say with a high level of confidence if he climbs up on a tower and starts shooting people, it won't be because people don't believe in his way of thinking. It will because of you. You will have driven him to madness.

If a discussion on a message board is going to do that, he needs to stop umpiring. :D

Peace

Or at least posting on umpiring forums.:)

If anyone gets mad over to use a helmet or not (when they created the thread) they needed to stop posting along time ago. ;)

Peace

HSM aside... it's story time.

At an Umpire Development Clinic we held a couple years ago, one of our new umps showed up ready to work the plate. Here's a rundown of his equipment:
1. Mask
2. Chest protector
3. shins
4. cup
5. Plate shoes
6. That little plastic insert from +POS to put in your hats to keep them from getting crushed in your bag. He thought it was a hidden skull cap special for umpires but said he had to send it back for a bigger size!:D


I almost pi$$ed my pants I laughed so hard!

Jeff,
you are a troll. If you can't make your point with logic and a well thought out, well constructed argument, you change the subject, start talking about emotions or changing someones mind or just make flip comments about having all the facts.

Let me put this too you bluntly Jeff, where whatever you want. I was trying to have a good discussion, but it is obvious you can't. Your lame argument/logic (if there really was one) and obvious zig zag, shuck and jive two step act isn't fooling anyone.

The two things about this that make me sad are that I actually believed you could have an honest open discussion about this and that WWTB has been right all along... too bad really, cause I didn't want to believe it.

(slowly closes eyes and shakes head)

What was the reason you posted this again?

This is how it works. When you create a thread no matter what the topic, it opens the possibility that people will comment on them. You might read posts you like. You might read posts you do not like. Then it is up to you respond or keep the thread.

This is how it has worked from the beginning of this board and long before you got here. It is not going to change overnight. So when you do not read something you like, you have some choices to make.

This ends the lesson for today.

Peace

ROTFLMFAO

Whatever you say Jeff....

The two step continues....

Yes. :eek:

Peace

I would like to hear more of the study about catchers who keep injuring their throwing hands catching foul tips with the bare hand.

I would like to know how many players look in the sun and get hit on the head with the ball, and then get concussions as a result.

Peace

Jeff,

It's OK, you can let go now.