LL Mandatory Play

[aceholleran]

Just chiming in here.

Mistake by VT coach is inexcusable. This was probably the 15th or 20th post-season game this team had played. In my experience, scorers and/or umps make sure that teams have gotten all their subs in. I do believe (don't have it with me) that avoiding this type of forfeit was mentioned by W-port in a point of emphasis.

That notwithstanding, I think the rule absolutely bites the big one.

Why?

* It deprives thousands of kids worldwide from playing LL tourney (most teams are carrying less than the 14 max. players to reduce subbing; in my area, IMHO, a scant number of teams have carried 14 since MPU rule came into play).
* It takes coaching out of the game. Got that little junkball reliever? Now he's gotta bat and play 3 outs in the field! Can't tell you how many coaches have complained to me about this (and for once, they're right). No pinch-runner, or one of my favorite ploys, the Eddie Gaedel designated walker.
* Little Johnny had all regular season with MPR. Why not let kids who worked hard to make tourney teams play something more similar to actual baseball?
* I saw an invocation of "other coach calls the sub" this year when a kid got hurt. This is baseball?

I could go on.

[Dave Hensley]

The sweet spot with respect to MPR in tournament play was the rule they had a couple of years ago - one at bat OR 3 defensive outs. Combined with the relaxed re-entry rules implemented about the same time (where both starter and sub could re-enter, and unlimited number of times) that MPR rule was virtually impossible for a coach to screw up, plus it actually created a "pinch hitter heaven" for the smart manager who realizes that his #13 or #14 guys aren't "the worst hitters on the team," they are instead in the top 5% or so of the hitters in their league.

That rule was the perfect compromise between the conflicting objectives of guaranteed participation and maximum competitiveness, and of course Little League went on to fix a rule that wasn't broken, resulting in what we have today - coaches making a travesty of the game one game before the nationally televised game.

[gsf23]

IS there a link to a story about this game anywhere out there. I have been searching all through ESPN, CNNSI and the Little League site and I cannot find any sotries on what went on during this game. I would really like to read an account of what happened as all I am hearing is what other people heard happened. IF any one can help I would greatly appreciate it..

[TussAgee11]

Ace - I was going to start a thread on the very same thing, but you hit it all on the head.

Its LL, not baseball.

And one more thing, I commend the NH coach for his words after the game, saying that he had to have the kid strike out, it was the best thing for his team. But he also said that he never would have done that had VT not done what they did, throwing wild pitches, etc.

Just a really quirky thing caused by a moronic coach. Not the best MENSA candidate, is he?

[mcrowder]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...1&SearchID=732

I have a question -

The coach told his players to strike out intentionally, and he didn't send his runner from 3rd on a wild pitch...

Isn't this exactly what was discussed here earlier that can and should lead directly to a forfeit (double-forfeit in this case)?

If LL insists on these rules, and then doesn't enforce forfeits when managers try to manipulate those rules, isn't the next step for a coach to tell his pitcher to intentionally hit the next two batters? Is that what LL wants?

[PeteBooth]

That notwithstanding, I think the rule absolutely bites the big one.

Why?

* It deprives thousands of kids worldwide from playing LL tourney (most teams are carrying less than the 14 max. players to reduce subbing; in my area, IMHO, a scant number of teams have carried 14 since MPU rule came into play).

* It takes coaching out of the game. Got that little junkball reliever? Now he's gotta bat and play 3 outs in the field! Can't tell you how many coaches have complained to me about this (and for once, they're right). No pinch-runner, or one of my favorite ploys, the Eddie Gaedel designated walker.

* Little Johnny had all regular season with MPR. Why not let kids who worked hard to make tourney teams play something more similar to actual baseball?

* I saw an invocation of "other coach calls the sub" this year when a kid got hurt. This is baseball?

First off IMO you are missing the point.

This is All Stars so it's not like players 12 through 14 cannot play the game.

The International teams do not seem to have a problem with the rule. I believe last year the team that won had no problem getting 14 kids in the game whereas the US team only had 11.

I agree with Dave in that the "old" rule was better but EVERYONE is playing with the same rules so IMO it is inexusable for a Coach who Forfeits a game because all of his players did not meet MPR.

As for your comment about playing "real" baseball. Until LL moves the bases to 70ft. and allows runners to lead off, run on an uncaught third strike etc. then talk to me about "real" baseball.

This is All Stars not the regular season where a coach gets stuck "babysitting" for a handful of kids. The All Stars are selected.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

As for your comment about playing "real" baseball. Until LL moves the bases to 70ft. and allows runners to lead off, run on an uncaught third strike etc. then talk to me about "real" baseball.

Pete Booth

70' is "real" baseball?

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...1&SearchID=732

I have a question -

The coach told his players to strike out intentionally, and he didn't send his runner from 3rd on a wild pitch...

Isn't this exactly what was discussed here earlier that can and should lead directly to a forfeit (double-forfeit in this case)?

If LL insists on these rules, and then doesn't enforce forfeits when managers try to manipulate those rules, isn't the next step for a coach to tell his pitcher to intentionally hit the next two batters? Is that what LL wants?

That would be the next logical step. If you are going to tell your guy to strike out intentionally, well then I guess we just have to hit the next two batters.

Couldn't they just issue an intentional walk or do they still have to throw it?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

70' is "real" baseball?

Actually, the distance to the base isn't what determines whether or not it's real baseball. The other rules he mentioned are what determines it. Mustang League in the PONY organization plays "real baseball" on 60ft. bases because of their age (9-10). But they have leadoffs, pickoffs, balks, uncaught 3rd strikes, and all the other goodies associtated with "real baseball." There is no arbitrary diamond size or age group that distinguishes real baseball from anything less.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Actually, the distance to the base isn't what determines whether or not it's real baseball. The other rules he mentioned are what determines it. Mustang League in the PONY organization plays "real baseball" on 60ft. bases because of their age (9-10). But they have leadoffs, pickoffs, balks, uncaught 3rd strikes, and all the other goodies associtated with "real baseball." There is no arbitrary diamond size or age group that distinguishes real baseball from anything less.

Oh, THAT makes it real baseball. Every walk is a triple.

[GarthB]

"Real" baseball is not played on 60', 70' or 80' diamonds. I am familiar with a number of youth organization's rules and add-ons. None of them play "real" baseball.

There is no "real" baseball below the MiLB level.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

"Real" baseball is not played on 60', 70' or 80' diamonds. I am familiar with a number of youth organization's rules and add-ons. None of them play "real" baseball.

There is no "real" baseball below the MiLB level.

So you're saying that HS and college baseball isn't real baseball?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

So you're saying that HS and college baseball isn't real baseball?

Yes. College is a game very similar, but unless you are using OBR without any effin add-ons and safety rules, it ain't "real" baseball. I've heard from several local college players who got drafted and who say, "it's great to be playing real baseball."

Remember now, I am talking about the game itself, not the quality of play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

There is no "real" baseball below the MiLB level.

I guess unless we're pro umpires, we've just been wasting our time all these years. Damn, before coming on these internet charlie sites, I was a pretty confident and happy sports official. Now I find out I've been working fake baseball all this time. How depressing.

[Carbide Keyman]

I was feelin' real good about myself and my umpirin' till I found out that bein' a XXL shirt wearin', +POS chest protector wearin', HSM wearin' should disqualify me from being a good umpire and bein' seen in public as a member of the umpirin' community.

I'm shore glad it was pointed out to me before I made a fool of myself !




Doug