LL Mandatory Play
 

Just chiming in here.

Mistake by VT coach is inexcusable. This was probably the 15th or 20th post-season game this team had played. In my experience, scorers and/or umps make sure that teams have gotten all their subs in. I do believe (don't have it with me) that avoiding this type of forfeit was mentioned by W-port in a point of emphasis.

That notwithstanding, I think the rule absolutely bites the big one.

Why?

* It deprives thousands of kids worldwide from playing LL tourney (most teams are carrying less than the 14 max. players to reduce subbing; in my area, IMHO, a scant number of teams have carried 14 since MPU rule came into play).
* It takes coaching out of the game. Got that little junkball reliever? Now he's gotta bat and play 3 outs in the field! Can't tell you how many coaches have complained to me about this (and for once, they're right). No pinch-runner, or one of my favorite ploys, the Eddie Gaedel designated walker.
* Little Johnny had all regular season with MPR. Why not let kids who worked hard to make tourney teams play something more similar to actual baseball?
* I saw an invocation of "other coach calls the sub" this year when a kid got hurt. This is baseball?

I could go on.

The sweet spot with respect to MPR in tournament play was the rule they had a couple of years ago - one at bat OR 3 defensive outs. Combined with the relaxed re-entry rules implemented about the same time (where both starter and sub could re-enter, and unlimited number of times) that MPR rule was virtually impossible for a coach to screw up, plus it actually created a "pinch hitter heaven" for the smart manager who realizes that his #13 or #14 guys aren't "the worst hitters on the team," they are instead in the top 5% or so of the hitters in their league.

That rule was the perfect compromise between the conflicting objectives of guaranteed participation and maximum competitiveness, and of course Little League went on to fix a rule that wasn't broken, resulting in what we have today - coaches making a travesty of the game one game before the nationally televised game.

IS there a link to a story about this game anywhere out there. I have been searching all through ESPN, CNNSI and the Little League site and I cannot find any sotries on what went on during this game. I would really like to read an account of what happened as all I am hearing is what other people heard happened. IF any one can help I would greatly appreciate it..

Ace - I was going to start a thread on the very same thing, but you hit it all on the head.

Its LL, not baseball.

And one more thing, I commend the NH coach for his words after the game, saying that he had to have the kid strike out, it was the best thing for his team. But he also said that he never would have done that had VT not done what they did, throwing wild pitches, etc.

Just a really quirky thing caused by a moronic coach. Not the best MENSA candidate, is he?

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...1&SearchID=732

I have a question -

The coach told his players to strike out intentionally, and he didn't send his runner from 3rd on a wild pitch...

Isn't this exactly what was discussed here earlier that can and should lead directly to a forfeit (double-forfeit in this case)?

If LL insists on these rules, and then doesn't enforce forfeits when managers try to manipulate those rules, isn't the next step for a coach to tell his pitcher to intentionally hit the next two batters? Is that what LL wants?

That notwithstanding, I think the rule absolutely bites the big one.

Why?

* It deprives thousands of kids worldwide from playing LL tourney (most teams are carrying less than the 14 max. players to reduce subbing; in my area, IMHO, a scant number of teams have carried 14 since MPU rule came into play).

* It takes coaching out of the game. Got that little junkball reliever? Now he's gotta bat and play 3 outs in the field! Can't tell you how many coaches have complained to me about this (and for once, they're right). No pinch-runner, or one of my favorite ploys, the Eddie Gaedel designated walker.

* Little Johnny had all regular season with MPR. Why not let kids who worked hard to make tourney teams play something more similar to actual baseball?

* I saw an invocation of "other coach calls the sub" this year when a kid got hurt. This is baseball?

First off IMO you are missing the point.

This is All Stars so it's not like players 12 through 14 cannot play the game.

The International teams do not seem to have a problem with the rule. I believe last year the team that won had no problem getting 14 kids in the game whereas the US team only had 11.

I agree with Dave in that the "old" rule was better but EVERYONE is playing with the same rules so IMO it is inexusable for a Coach who Forfeits a game because all of his players did not meet MPR.

As for your comment about playing "real" baseball. Until LL moves the bases to 70ft. and allows runners to lead off, run on an uncaught third strike etc. then talk to me about "real" baseball.

This is All Stars not the regular season where a coach gets stuck "babysitting" for a handful of kids. The All Stars are selected.

Pete Booth

70' is "real" baseball?

That would be the next logical step. If you are going to tell your guy to strike out intentionally, well then I guess we just have to hit the next two batters.

Couldn't they just issue an intentional walk or do they still have to throw it?

Actually, the distance to the base isn't what determines whether or not it's real baseball. The other rules he mentioned are what determines it. Mustang League in the PONY organization plays "real baseball" on 60ft. bases because of their age (9-10). But they have leadoffs, pickoffs, balks, uncaught 3rd strikes, and all the other goodies associtated with "real baseball." There is no arbitrary diamond size or age group that distinguishes real baseball from anything less.

Oh, THAT makes it real baseball. Every walk is a triple.

"Real" baseball is not played on 60', 70' or 80' diamonds. I am familiar with a number of youth organization's rules and add-ons. None of them play "real" baseball.

There is no "real" baseball below the MiLB level.

So you're saying that HS and college baseball isn't real baseball?

Yes. College is a game very similar, but unless you are using OBR without any effin add-ons and safety rules, it ain't "real" baseball. I've heard from several local college players who got drafted and who say, "it's great to be playing real baseball."

Remember now, I am talking about the game itself, not the quality of play.

I guess unless we're pro umpires, we've just been wasting our time all these years. Damn, before coming on these internet charlie sites, I was a pretty confident and happy sports official. Now I find out I've been working fake baseball all this time. How depressing.:(

Well .....................
 

I was feelin' real good about myself and my umpirin' till I found out that bein' a XXL shirt wearin', +POS chest protector wearin', HSM wearin' should disqualify me from being a good umpire and bein' seen in public as a member of the umpirin' community.

I'm shore glad it was pointed out to me before I made a fool of myself !;)




Doug

Didn't you see the story on ESPN.com about the Utah coach? That was no all star team...those were local kids playing and the kid who made the last out had two hits all season. Playoff baseball at that level is about playing...not watching.

I have to throw a screwball here.

OK, HOW could this coach get into this situation? This is as bad as Marty Morningweig(Sp?) choosing to kick in overtime.

Even worse...WHY didn't he have his pitcher throw the pitch out of play? would that not have caused a run to score? LL has one base from the pitching plate, right?

Coaches should know the dang rules.

Joe

I didn't think about throwing it out of play. That would have worked, I am curious to know what the umpires would have done. Rules say that one base is awarded TOP, but they had already ejected a player and a coach for trying to lose the game. What else can you do?

Here's a solution, call them strikes!

Better yet, throw out all the coaches, and then say, no coaches left? Sorry, game over.

In all actuality, the TD should have stopped the game, called Williamsport, told them how awful it was, and then Williamsport could have forfeited the game to NH before it was over based off the actions of VT. That would have been the best, and most realistic, thing to do, rather then have the NH coach have his kids intentionally strike out. That made this incident go from funny to sad.

I don't take the "real baseball" bait. There's pro baseball, there's college, there's HS, there's Connie Mack, there's amateur adult baseball, and yes, there's Litte League (both trademarked and generic) baseball. And on and on.

In 1994 when my two sons were pretty much at the peak of their fanaticism over what some here are calling "real" baseball, the "real" baseball players went on strike. My boys were devastated, until I packed them in the van and took them on a little vacation. We saw MiLB games, we saw independent pro games, and we saw high school summer leagues playing baseball that was real enough for us.

That strike wasn't, and wasn't close to, the end of baseball. Pardon my James Earl Jones imitation, but as long as there are youth fields and high school fields and beer league fields dotting the landscape, people will be playing, watching, and umpiring baseball, whether the bonus babies are out there performing or not.

F**k "real" baseball. The baseball I participate in is real enough for me.

Dave,

I didn't use it as bait. I responded to the ridiculous argument various youth organizations have with one another over who has "real" baseball. I took that argument to the extreme to point out that none of them can lay claim to "real" baseball.

Here's a follow-up story from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseb...-forfeit_x.htm

What I kinda found amazing was that the Vermont team only was carrying <b>eleven</b> kids in this game instead of their regular roster of 13 because of injuries. A supposedly experienced coach couldn't figure out how to get <b>two(2)</b> subs legally into the game? And he blames everybody else for his screw-up? Yeah...right!

Yes, JR, that is quite amazing. I would bet the two injured players were encouraged to be injured.

I understand and agree with your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB "Real" baseball is not played on 60', 70' or 80' diamonds. I am familiar with a number of youth organization's rules and add-ons. None of them play "real" baseball. There is no "real" baseball below the MiLB level.

Garth, that is your opinion but I disagree with it. So what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse in the All Star Game is "REAL" baseball.

The Term for "real" baseball means players can lead off the bases, stealing allowed, Balks are enforced etc. etc.

The one thing I do not like is the metal bats. The game IMO was meant for wood.

I do not know of any league other than PRO Ball that does not have safety caveats and for good reason, however that does not mean they are not playing "Real" baseball.

Since you are using EXTREMES, I will also go to the extreme as well. Today in MLB we have the DH, InterLeague Play, Wild card teams, The pitching mound was lowered. The baseballs are juiced (as are the players), ball parks are smaller. In addition, F1 cannot retaliate the way they could in the past. Today after F1 hits a batter and in the judgement of the umpire warrants a warning, the next F1 (normally the one who retaliates) is ejected. Not so when Gibson, Kofax, Drysdale pitched.

So does the aforementioned mean that prior to the changes that MLB put in place, the players "back in the day" played "REAL" baseball and the players today are playing an "imitation" form.

To each his own as they say.

Pete Booth

Joe,
I can get three outs from bases loaded even with a ball thown out of play, with no outs to start with.
Runner from 1st passes runner on 2nd. Runner from first is now out.
Runner on 2nd now passes runner on 3rd. Runner from 2nd is now out.
Runner on 3rd will now head into the dugout. 3rd out.

Uh...okay.

T.W.P.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_16_2.gif

If the coach did this, he should be awarded victory just for knowing the rules. He should also win a golden medallion!

It's not a TWP if the coach does it on purpose ... which was the point of the post.

mc got it right. Not a TWP as a coach. Directed play to gain the advantage after the other coach starts messing around. Plunk my batter, throw wild pitches, walk the batter. Just cause VT screwed up doesn't mean NH can't play the game to win within the (screwed up) LL MPR.

Yes, I see what you mean. I misinterpreted your meaning behind the post.

... and another thing ...
 

Remember the original post was full of my reasons against MPR.

Another one was brought up by a poster. I have seen coachs--both in regular- and post-season play) emcourge "hurt" kids to stay home before key games.

I even know a coach who would conveniently suspend his 2-3 least-talented players during a practice right before a big game. The same guy would not inform certain kids about make-up games and other schedule changes.

Hmmm.

Ace

For the most part, sand-lot ball, where I first learned to play, doesn't exist anymore. Kids aren't allowed to play uncoached, unsupervised and unfettered by parents. "Organized" youth sports not only dominate, in most areas they are the only option.

Every kid should be able to play up to a certain age. Personally, I think that prior to Frosh ball, every kid should have some place where he is able to swing a bat, field a ball and and run the bases. The fact that many don't is one reason that baseball has lost so much of its popularity with our young people.

Frosh ball is soon enogh for all kids to have to deal with "being good enough" to pay a game. For those who wish to teach their kids that lesson earlier, there are select teams available.

MPR appears to be Little Leagues way to keep baseball active in the heart of any kid who wants to participate. I applaud the goal even if the methodology is imperfect.