Tie goes to runner?
 

I need to know when the ball and the runner touch the base at the same time, what is the call? Thank you

Out or safe, depending on the umpire's judgment. The umpire is not going to "see" it as "at the same time," even if the limits of his physical senses actually had it happening at the same time.

If the ball touches the bag, I've got nothing unless that ball is in a fielder's possession ... but that's just me.

I like it. Best description of the perception of two events happening simultaneously that I've seen.

SMACK=sound of the ball in the glove.
THUMP=sound of the Batter/runner hitting the base

Smack Thump=OUT
Thump Smack=SAFE
THACK or SMUMP=OUT

The tie goes to the umpire.

Joe

Thanks for that info guys, but what is the rule? Is he safe or out on an actual tie?

I had a coach come to me once and ask about that whacker that occurred on 1st base. I explained it was close, pop..thud. He asked the same question just asked, "what happens when there is a tie between the ball and the runner."

I came back with a quick retort on the spur of the moment, it got a good laugh from him and myself. It goes like this: "Contrary to popular myths and beliefs, a tie does not belong to the runner, it belongs to the umpire, and umpires like two things, Strikes and Outs."

Read all of rule 7.00 (the runner) in the official rules of baseball. I will mail you $1,000 for each time you find the word, "tie".

SOFE, no wait, AUT, uh......DO OVER!

I read all of rule 7.0. Your money is safe, but is the runner? How do I contact M.L.B Umpires Association on this one? No one seems to have a cut and dried answer. Not just here on this board, but elswhere. Maybe the umpires association can settle this one. Or maybe I'm just dreaming.

7.08 (e) out.

6.05 (j) safe.

You decide which is correct.:)

mr. friendly.....check out this thread:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=27603

Did the runner beat the ball to the bag? Meaning, did the runner attain the base (touch it) prior to the ball arriving? If so, then he is safe, if not, he's out.

You may percieve a grey area where it is difficult to decide, ask yourself, did the defense make the play difficult for you to decide or was it an incredible defensive play. Here are a couple of instances where you can use the fielding to determine the call:

"Easy grounder to infielder, who muffs the ball, picks it up and throws, it's difficult to determine the outcome after the throw, since the defense muffed the play, on this whacker. Safe."

"Difficult grounder that middle infielder makes an incredible stab at, fields it an throws to the bag. Again, it's difficult to determine whether the runner is safe or out. Give the benefit to the defense for making the play. Out."

Otherwise if it's a normal play, nothing out of the ordinary, and it's close, listen to what you hear. Pop..Thud = Out; Thud..Pop = Safe.

Main Entry: ridiculous
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: absurd
Synonyms: antic, bizarre, comic, comical, contemptible, daffy*, derisory, droll, fantastic, farcical, fool-headed, foolish, funny, gelastic, goofy*, grotesque, harebrained*, hilarious, impossible, incredible, jerky*, laughable, ludicrous, nonsensical, nutty*, outrageous, preposterous, risible, sappy*, silly, slaphappy*, stupid, unbelievable, wacky

A strict and literal reading of the rules won't help much, because it would tell you that a "tie" goes to the runner at 1B, but goes to the fielder on force plays at any other base. The truth is the rulesmakers didn't word the rules with any kind of distinction like that in mind; they simply did not consider, or deliberately provide for, the concept of a "tie" in the rules.

The answers you're getting here are as good as you're gonna get, i.e., they're the same answers you'll get from one or more MLB umpires.

I'd scream TIE!

What we are telling you is that there is no such thing as a "tie" in baseball. Most rules historians believe the rulesmakers purposefully refrained from addressing the issue, believing it best to have the runner either safe or out. He has to be one or the other. There is no rule that says, "the tie goes to..." It doesn't exist. Runners are either safe or out. That's why umpires get such huge amounts of money, to make this decision.

Stop fighting reality. Only parents and coaches believe there are ties in baseball. Of course, they also believe the hands are part of the bat, a pitch that hits the dirt is dead, home plate is foul and fast balls rise.

You mean the MLB guys, I hope, cuz it sure isn't most of us :p

There is no cut and dried answer anywhere in the rule book (any rule book).

There are no ties, never ever. The runner is either safe or out....everytime!

It's the umpire's judgment.... solely, completely, absolutely..... everytime!
(That's why we make the big bucks)!

Tie goes to the umpire, not the runner - OUT!

Out.

Foot did not beat the throw = runner out.
Foot beats throw = runner safe.

It really IS that simple.:D

Ties do not exist.

Honey, We Shrunk the Zone
 

What we are telling you is that there is no such thing as a "RISE" in baseball. We purposefully refrain from addressing the issue, believing it is best not to leave the issue HANGING over any single pitcher. There is no rule that says, "a rise from his 100 mph velocity..." Thrust, lift, drag, seams, and air flow are ignored. NEW baseballs fall or curve cause of gravity. Of course it doesn't fall or curve 3 feet off the table as predicted on every single pitch either. Every player {8:1} likes the smaller vertical ZONE. The only sound that matters is the crack of the bat or the pop of the mitt. That's why MLB umpires get such huge amounts of money for tracking these pitches. Stop fighting reality and ball everything HIGH and everything that HOPS.

OUT, again
 

Ties exist at the beginning of every game, 0-0.
Ump could be right or wrong or have NO clue about Safe or Out call.
Coaches cannot argue for a TIE.
The ties must be broken before the game ends.
Ties may then exist as a result of a ballgame, check league standings.

I can't tell if you're joking or not ... so I'll (against my better judgement) answer seriously.

There is no such thing as a tie. And to make certain that's crystal clear, there is no such thing as a tie. Independent events happen independently.

That said, you will find a place in the book (if you read it all) where it says a runner is out if he fails to beat the ball to the bag, and another that says he's safe if the ball fails to beat the runner to the bag (technically, one is BR, the other is just any runner ... but the technicality was not meant for us to rule a tie one way for BR and the other for runners - it's just symantics, and the rule-framers were surely not thinking of ties when they wrote it that way).

You're getting consistent responses that a tie belongs to the umpire. In a sense, since there is no rule mentioning ties at all, this is true - the tie belongs to the umpire. You will find umpires that take this to mean that on bangers, reward the good play, and punish the bad play. I don't personally like it, but you'll find those guys. You'll find guys who will ALWAYS call a banger an out. And you'll find a small minority of guys who will always call a banger safe. MOST of the time, however, to the perception of the umpire, one came before the other - you don't have time to think, "Was that a tie?"

And you'll never find an umpire who says he called a player out because it was a tie (or vice versa). We never "see" a tie.

Tie?
 

There is no such thing as a tie in baseball. The Batter-runner is either out or safe! Plus, it's a judgement call and we all know that judgement calls can't be argued! Right!

Ok,
 

I have refrained so far -- but I cannot help myself . . .

++++++++++++++++

It doesn't matter if the two actions happen exactly at the same time.

"Why" you may ask?, simple:

The NBA and NTSB both did independent studies that show the exact same outcome:

The human mind cannot tell what happens as soon as two actions occurr within .04 of a second of each other.

Both studies showed that no matter what happens the human brain cannot define the order of happenings when they happen so close together.

I would contend that an umpire simply will make the call based on what "appeared" to have happened.

While there are no "ties" (when dealing with safe/out), we wouldn't know it if it happened.

Regards,

There's nothing more you're going to hear from MLB about this one...in fact I'd be surprised if they'd even take the time to answer a question like that. There are no ties...only for the Saab driving mom in the stands.

Actually, they did. From MLB.com's Ask The Umpire website:

So there it is, from MLB. No ties.

There ya go...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve friendly I need to know when the ball and the runner touch the base at the same time, what is the call? Thank you

As others have mentioned to you, the answer is not in the rule book. You received excellent responses and I will add this.

There is certain criteria that some umpires adhere to concerning so called "TIES" or what's more commonly referred to in the umpire world as "Coin Flip" calls.

Example: Ground ball deep in the hole, F6 makes a great play and fires to first. The Call is a "coin flip" so in this instance some umpires will give benefit of doubt to the defense for a great play and rule out.

Another example; Same ground ball to F6, B1 is busting it out of the box, and F6 is taking his/her "sweet time" and turns what should be a routine out into a "coin flip". Since the runner was "busting it" even on a routine play, in that instance some umpires will rule safe.

In a nutshell, there is no clear cut answer. I do not know if this "theory" is still adhered to but I heard that some umpires make the call dependent upon where B1's body is at the time ball and runner arrive at approximately the same time.

In other words if B1's foot hit the bag at approximately the same time as the ball but his body was still in front of first base as opposed to after it, the call would be out and vice versa.

Perhaps there should be a "possession arrow" in baseball similiar to college basketball, meaning if the call is that close we have alternating calls. Out then safe depending upon the "out/safe arrow".

Pete Booth

Perhaps they should just make it a "Jump Ball" like the NBA. That would be fun to watch.:)

There was one in the minors a couple of years ago.

I suggest the runner and F3 play "Rock-Paper-Scissors". Best 2 of 3 gets the base :D

Do Overs
 

I believe there are three examples of "do overs" that are accepted in baseball:

"An inning must start with all players in the field of play (catcher in catcher's box) so if you have a couple of pitches, even a base hit, and then notice F9 has been in the restroom and not on the field you "do over" from the start of the inning."

"After a dead ball the defensive team tries a hidden ball trick. The plate umpire dose not notice that the pitcher did not have the ball when he put the ball back intous the ball was never legally in put into play."

"Batter hits the catcher's glove on his back swing . . . umpire can call a "do over" to reach equality."

Are there more "do overs" I am missing?

Regards,

The most common...batter backs out of the box without getting time called and the pitcher "balks." Start from scratch...."do over."

Thumb up for FED
 

Glad to see that come about a few years ago. The balk call created some bass-ackward moments. They got one right here, from my perspective.

An attempt
 

The backswing. A LL batter prepares to bunt the next pitch. The pitch is thrown right down the pipe. The batter decides to watch the pitch in to the mitt and pulls the bat back. The umpire rings it up as a strike. The clever mom yells that her son never made an attempt to bunt the pitch. Ump chuckles.

That's because OBR 6.06(c) CMT uses "backswing" to mean "follow through."

Sometimes the poster's meaning can be derived from context; sometimes clarification is needed.

I hate this MYTH
 

Tie goes to the runner? First of all, there is no tie. Secondly, it's my judgement as to safe or out. If the runner has not touched the next base on a force before he or the base is tagged, he is out... it's that simple.

This just in.....Horse Remains Deceased! Please discontinue beating it.:p

I'll keep beating it until I see the official SD Steve cartoon to initiate the cease-beating! :D

CEASE BEATING!

http://borgman.enquirer.com/img/dail...an_600x366.jpg

LMAO.... that one is classic!

Tie-Throw and foot arrive at same time...If that is the case, then the foot did not beat the throw...out...

Some think its a rule that tie goes to the runner; and some umpires call a game that way too. But in reality, thats wrong. Rule says the batter MUST BEAT the ball to the bag; meaning a tie would be an out. :D Simple. and i have never seen it happen where the ball gets there at EXACTLY the same time the ball gets there. :eek:

PLEASE stop saying the rules clearly say the batter must beat the ball to the bag. You are wrong. Read this rule:

6.05(j) A batter is out when after a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base.

Now, assuming English is your mother tongue, I hope you can see that a literal reading of this rule would suggest that a "tie," i.e., the batter or first base is tagged AT THE SAME TIME he touches first base, would NOT satisfy this rule's requirement for the batter being out.

Simple.

There are no ties in umpiring; the runner is either out or safe. But please, please do not base your argument in support of this reality on the wording of the rules. It's been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, yet several pages into this thread you're still citing "the rules" in support of your claim that a tie is always an out.

It ain't so. Please, stop saying it is.

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

Dan,

No offense here. You are new even though you have racked up 70+ posts in a few days. You are providing misinformation to the board which people like Dave need to address.

Ive been here a couple weeks. I may be wrong, but it helps me learn also. :rolleyes: I apologize for that. But then again; umpires at different levels=different rules

I will continue beating the poor horsey here.

Re-read 6.05(j) very carefully. It is talking about a play in which you can either tag the base, or tag the runner. It is a very poorly written rule, which contradicts common logic, which should tell us that the runner must beat the play in order to be safe, but actually says that the play must beat the runner in order to be out, which is what is causing this entire silly debate.

7.08(e), on the other hand, suggests that runners forced at bases other than 1st (because the BR is not forced to first, by rule) are out if they do not touch the base before either they or the base are touched. This is the opposite of how 6.05(j) is written, and really should be the standard used in 6.05(j), if the rule writers wanted to end this "tie goes to the runner" crap once and for all.

Do you see the difference?

Hehehe,
 

Now some of you may see why I have such a distaste for Little League umpires.

If "Dan" was posting on eTeamSleeze his posts would be average and appropriate. He has said he "assumes" all rules questions are Little League: that is a critical mistake on this board.

This board is a mixture of umpires that primarily work games played by shaving aged players. In the most general of terms, we assume references are OBR, FED or NCAA -- for someone to not only assume the questions are base on Little Legaue but make their statements as if they KNOW the rules is a double wammy.

Maybe, just maybe, when the LLWS is done (the finest example of terrible umpiring proven each summer on National TV) many of the LL posters will return to their couches.

In an effort to get my point across and not offend SDS: "Most Little League umpires suck."

Regards,

As someone who umpires college and high school baseball along with Little League (and Dave Hensley does also), you would be well served to listen more and post less. 95% (or more) of the rules that apply in Major League Baseball are the exact same in Little League.

Last night I'm working 2 games in our state 9-10 year old tourney on the small diamond (five years ago I would've never imagined me working these games). A team from the northern part of the state asked about a "must slide rule" on a successful steal of second where the runner ran to the base and the fielder missed a swipe tag (LL has no such thing) and also thought that once a catcher had the ball the runners had to go to the next base or return to their previous base (some *******ized local rule that they adamantly thought was a real LL rule -- either that or something their umpires "thought" was a LL rule). They also thought running the ball to the mound "froze" the runners.

At least it wasn't over 100 degrees.

Just 23 days Tee....hang on.

I don't take offense to that, because, like Rich and Dave, I am a real umpire who happens to also work Little League. 95% of games I've ever worked have been shaving age players.

I wont get into that. :mad:

Why won't you?

Now, now, Rich. You just advised him to read more and post less, and now here you are baiting him :D

I just like to hear from Little League umpires, cause I don't understand them even though I work a few dozen games in Little League each season. I'm pretty insulated from the stereotypical LL umpire -- for example, last night I worked a 9-10 state DH with a guy who went to PBUC this year and was offered a job (didn't take it cause of lack of health insurance).

I like working LL, mainly because of the people I umpire with, but I just don't "get it" sometimes. How any significant subset of a group of umpires can, essentially, work one rule set and yet make comments like "maybe I need to read the rule book" amazes me.

And don't get me started on how they expect umpires to work for free and also pick umpires for national tournaments using "umpiring ability" as a minor factor in being chosen....

SanDiegoSteve I'm almost sorry I ever brought this question up. Thanks for your input and everybody else as well. I went to the "go ask umpire site" and the umpiring crew chief for the major leagues said the runner must beat the throw other-wise he is out. Hard to argue with that. I was in dispute of that in the beginning, but tough to refute a major league umpire. If you guys want to keep beating it to death, go right ahead. It is entertaining.

Takin' the bait
 

While this has been discussed before, I'll jump in.

Little League is fundamentally organized as a service organization that provides baseball and softball leagues for youth. As such, most folks that contribute are expected to be volunteers, and the bulk of the volunteers are probably parents of the children involved. Ideally, the dedication of the volunteers to the experience of the children will offset the sometimes spotty quality of the groundskeeping, coaching, scorekeeping, and even the umpiring. The skills of the volunteers can be very ragged and, unfortunately, sometimes so is their dedication to the kids.

I train the umpires for the local Little League. Most are parents (mostly dads) with a little more spare time, eagerness to help out, our less tolerance to the pain in a twisted arm than the other parents on the team. None have been dreaming all their lives about calling strikes and outs in a ball game. I can usually squeeze about 8 hours before the season starts from their schedule for the training, and I have to start with the assumption that they've never carefully watched a baseball game. At the end of their first season, I suspect that none of them can find their way around the rulebook, though I hope that many have read through it at least once.

I do promote the reading of this web site to the local umpires. I warn them that they may never want to post (and I know that I read it for most of a year before I did), and that much of the information here doesn't transfer simply to our experience, but I've personally learned a bunch about the rules, their application, and the necessary demeanor to be a more successful LL umpire.

I'm not sure what he really thinks, but
 

Tee usually doesn't include the underlined adjective.

Little League is a charitable organization that, thanks largely to its television contract with ESPN and its charter fees from local leagues, took in $2 million more in revenue than it expended last year (for non-charitable organizations, that would be known as a "profit"). In my opinion, the organization is overzealous and wrongheaded in its insistence that its umpires work for free. They make no such demands on their executive and administrative staff in Williamsport, on their regional directors and staff in each of the eight US regions, or on local league service vendors such as insurance agents, equipment suppliers, or the like.

Little League has, in the US, been losing market share to competing leagues for a number of years now. Certainly there are any number of reasons for that, but one seems pretty clearly to be the general feeling amongst kids and their parents that the typical LL is pretty far removed from "real baseball." Perhaps that image could be improved if more leagues experimented with using "real umpires."

Non-profit
 

Yes, Little League has a lot of money, and I'm not always happy myself with the attention drawn to the LLWS, which shouldn't be (and isn't for most teams) the center of the season. I can't quote figures, but I think that at least part of the surplus is keeping the Little League charter fee relatively stable.

On the other hand, our District hosts one of the softball world series, and I know that the participants (from all over the world) have a wonderful experience. The WS programs don't seem to be taking resources from the bulk of the teams' seasons and is a good experience for those that make it, but I sure wish that the LLWS wasn't such a goal for some leagues.

Little League has the lowest percentage of paid employees of any similar youth service organization that I know of. I've been involved for 14 seasons, and I've never met a paid employee of LL, though I've spoken with some on the phone. We'd certainly have better quality coaches, umpires, groundskeepers, and special events coordinators if we paid them, but I doubt if the quality of umpiring is ever the reason somebody chooses a different league. My local league saw slightly higher participation this year, and it is by far the biggest local program outside of highschool.

Little League has mandatory playing requirements and strongly encourages an accommodation for all players that want to play (including keeping it affordable). It can never be the most competitive league, and children may well find a better baseball experience in other leagues. What they'll find in Little League, hopefully, is an environment where every adult they come into contact with is motivated by making the experience the best for them. Rather than, say, being primarily motivated by money and ego.

I realize each local LL probably has it's own character. LL in my town was did not exist until two years ago. Some parents felt that their kids were not getting enough playing time and broke away from PONY. These were the same parents who broke away from Babe Ruth to set up PONY years earlier. Not surprisingly, this year, complaining that their kids were not getting enough playing time, some of the same founding parents broke away again and started another new league, this one affiliated with NABF. Just a bit of ego involved in every step.

PONY, still by far the largest youth baseball leauge in town, lists as their number two asset in their flyers and bill boards, "real umpires." I've talked to a number of parents who give that as one of the reasons they have either stayed with, or switched to PONY.

I stopped off and watched a LL game a while back after working a HS game. The umpire was dressed in jeans and a blue shirt, a backwards Mariner cap, shinguards on the outside of his pants, a catcher's mask and no ball bag. On every pitch he flinched by taking two full steps backwards, and at times looking away while call "strike" or "ball". He called a B/R out for a running lane violation on a clean hit to LF and no play made at first. He parked his butt behind home and made all calls and all bases from there.

After the game, we talked a bit. It turned out he was the trainer for LL umpires in that league. I mentioned that LL had a great training camp in San Bernardino for umpires. He had heard of it, but said that it wasn't necessary. "People try to make umpirng harder than it is," he said, "balls and strikes, safes and outs, and you've got it covered."

With clinics and camps, uniform and equipment replacements and additions, and gas expenses, I spend in excess of $3000 per year for my avocation. I work about 150 game a year, meaning that I spend over $20 a game on umpiring. I do not work for free and I am not ashamed of that. However, if I worked like that LL umpire trainer, I would be embarrassed to take any amount of money.