Can checked swing be a 'fourth out' appeal?
 

Long-time reader, first-time poster (a lurker, I suppose). I thoroughly enjoy the forum and the banter, and have learned quite a bit (bad knees have put the kibosh on my umpiring for the last few years, so I may be a little rusty, but I still have the passion). Anyway, here's my sitch.....

Runner on 1st, two outs, two strikes on the batter. On the next pitch, runner breaks for 2nd, batter check swings, and catcher's throw retires runner at second for the third out. The question is, can the defense now appeal the checked swing and (assuming the BU rings him up) take the 'fourth out', retiring the batter so he doesn't lead off the next inning?

I didn't see it, but my brother called me about a similar play that happened last night in the CLE-BOS game...except the runner was safe at 2nd. The checked swing was appealed for the 3rd out of the inning, so no stolen base was awarded in the box score. That's what got me thinking......

Thanks.

I don't see why not...

Absolutely
 

This could make a huge difference in the game. If the batter DID indeed swing at the pitch, that would be the third out and there would be no chance at a play at second. Either way the inning ends. No difference? Not exactly. Say the batter is a great hitter. If he was struck out, then the runner on second would be stranded and the next batter would lead off next inning. If you give the defense the out at second and do not allow them to appeal the check swing, then the same great hitter would lead off next inning. Now the only concern I have is "does an appeal of a check swing have to occur before the defense makes a play at second?" Something worth pondering. I don't think it is fair to not allow the defense to appeal...

if the check swing is the third out, then almost by definition it occured prior to the play at 2B, as the runner could not have reached 2B before the swing.

Especially since he was thrown out at 2nd by the catcher.;)

True but...
 

The question is ... if the plate umpire rules it a ball or couldn't see it because the catcher blocked him out, and the catcher made a throw to second because he didn't hear the ump call a strike, can he now appeal to the base umpire about whether the batter swung or not? We all know that 95% of the time you cannot tell whether a batter swung while in the B position but would this be a proper appeal or not is the question?

so what is the answer...my intuition tells me that the proper mechanics would be for the 2nd base umpire to not make a call until the appeal and then make the call at 2nd base. if upon appeal the BU judges that the batter did not swing. IMO, this would not be a 4th out sitch. great question...nobody wants to take this one on though...

Guys,

The catcher (or manager) has every right to appeal to the PU to check with his partner on a "checked swing" called a ball by the PU. According to the MLBUM, the PU "has an obligation" to do so if the appeal is made.

If the PU says the batter offered, the batter is out and the play at 2B never happened - because the half inning had ended. The batter was out at the instant he offered at the pitch and missed (assuming the pitch was legally caught). It just wasn't clear that had happened until the BU confirmed that "he went".

If, on the other hand, the BU confirms the PU's call of a ball, the play at 2B DID happen. In the original sitch, the inning ends with the tag out of the stealing R1 and the same batter is the proper batter to start the next half inning for his team's turn at bat.

JM

I agree JM.

I don't think its a "4th out" technically speaking, but it sure could make a difference.

For scoring purposes, I would say that if the BU rings up the batter, a CS would not be put into the book. Therefore, I don't see a 4th out here.

What happens if the ball was in the dirt! I'll tell you what, a possible s***storm!

I can usually determine if in my judgment the batter offered at the pitch from B or C. I would say that 95% of the time I get the call right from the middle. I do not use the position of the bat as the major determining factor on a check swing. I use my judgment in deciding if the batter actually offered at the pitch, or managed to check his swing without doing so.

I realize that Coach JM...i think we all know that if the PU calls swing that's strike three and play at 2nd doesn't matter unless strike three is in the dirt at the point in which the B offered at the pitch...at that point the PU must act quickly and let the catcher and B know what's going on ASAP...the no catch mechanic should come into play here (if the ball is in the dirt) but TussAgee is right...this could get really sticky...when in doubt on a sitch like this...it makes most sense to call strike 3 on the check swing so that would eliminate the appeal in most instances as your BU wouldn't take a strike away from you as the PU...

I think you must allow the checked swing appeal here. Suppose we have R1 and R3 and the offense tries to score R3 by having R1 steal second to draw a throw from F2... on the throw R3 advances to and touches home plate. If the checked swing appeal is upheld and the batter is out, no run scores.

This is a good thread. The rule is not that difficult to understand. What about the mechanics? Does BU make a call at second before PU asks for help? If not, how long does he wait to make the call? What if PU has a reputation for not checking with BU on these types of appeals (I know that he should, but many here won't if BU is in B or C)?

Many umpire manuals stress that in these cases the PU should immediately ask for an appeal on his own (without waiting for the coach/F2), so as to resolve the play as soon as possible, and not place runners in peril unnecessarily.

I understand. However, I frequently work with guys who won't ask when BU is in the middle or if the batter is left handed.:confused:
I guess my question boils down to, how long do I as BU wait to make a call at second?

We DON'T all know this.

I can call a check swing just as well from B or C as I can from A or D. Saying otherwise just perpetuates this myth.

I don't follow this at all.

"When in doubt" PU should call whetever he'd call in any other situation -- the specific play of two outs and a runner stealing has no bearing on PU's call.

"Eliminate the appeal in most instances" -- if PU judges that the batter swung, it eliminates the appeal in all instances.

The mechanics are simple (well, simple to understand). Until PU asks for an appeal, it's a ball. BU makes the call on the bases. If there's then an appeal, rule on it.

It might get confusing for BU if the pitch is in the dirt and PU asks immediately (as he's supposed to.) Now, BU should rule on the swing immediately and be turning for the play at second, and must recognize that it's now a force play and be ready for a throw-back to first if R1 is not retired at second. That's a lot, but that's why BU gets paid the big bucks.

Your guys need to give back part of their game check. There is NO reason not to ask BU anytime, what position he is in is irrelevant. The BU can judge intent from anywhere. If the batter is LH and you are in "A"? Do the best you can with what you saw....if the teams want a better angle, they can pay for a U3.

I have banged out more than one batter from B and/or C, and I've never had a PU who was reluctant to ask me.

Wow! In this sitch, BU has made three decisions without a ball being batted! Hat's off to this guy, he's on top of it tonight!

Personally, I can see myself kicking this play all to he11!:(

I agree 100%! Many times these guy's cover checked swings in pre-game by saying, "If they ask me to come to you, just agree with me. If I come to you on my own gimme what you got." My ususal response is, "If you don't want my opinion, don't ask, if you ask, I'll give it to you."

Heh. The other day I was in C, with R1, R2, no outs. Ball hit to F6, who swipes at R2 going to 3B:

"Safe!" (missed the tag)

then F6 tries to start a DP, throws to 2B:

"Out!"

then relay to 1B, not in time:

"Safe!"


...all in the space of ~3-4 seconds.

But it all started with a batted ball:D

Add a wrinkle here - stealing R1, check swing, ball hits dirt, F2 fires to 2nd for the steal, but runner is safe. BR takes off, not knowing whether that was a strike or not, and F6 puts the ball in the stands, R1 awarded home.

Defense appeals the swing - yes, he went. The steal of 2nd is now, retroactively, a force play.

My head hurts...:confused:

What makes some umpires afraid to ask the BU for help when they are in the middle? It makes no difference where the BU is positioned, he's watching the pitch for just that purpose. Otherwise, he could just stand out there and pick the daisies.

Was this the guy who said this?:D

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos...-15_nump-b.jpg

It wasn't him, but I'm sure they're related! ;)

If you don't know this then you know how to get a coach mad very easily
 

If you can stand on the third base side of a field and tell a coach that his batter definitely swung on a legitimately close check swing then if the coach knows anythign about baseball will be riding you... Theres an impossible angle.

R1, R2, two out, two strikes on the batter. Runners stealing on the pitch, which is a check swing in the dirt. PU calls "ball", catcher throws to third to try to retire the stealing R2. Third baseman misses the tag, but he is touching the bag when he takes the throw. Defense appeals the check swing, and the BU says "Yes, he went".
Where is the out recorded? And who leads off next inning? As soon as it became a dropped third strike, it became a force at third base, and the third baseman WAS touching the base when he took the throw....hmmm....

I love this game -
JJ

If you can stand on the third base side of a field and not be able to tell a coach that his better offered on a legitimately close check swing, then you are looking for the wrong evidence.

Cripes, another myth . . .
 

"If you can stand on the third base side of a field and tell a coach that his batter definitely swung on a legitimately close check swing then if the coach knows anythign about baseball will be riding you... Theres an impossible angle."

As I have intoned many, many times:

People that defend this logic either don't understand the checked/unchecked swing rule or do not have the guts to make a tough call.

A well trained umpire can easily make this call from either "B" or "C".

Regards,

JJ, what an amazingly unique and previously unthought of situation :rolleyes: (see above!!!) :)

I would say, since it was not called a strike orginally (Appeal afterwards), the out would be by the guy thrown out at second, and batter is back up next inning. :)

Then you would be wrong.:)

Do you have any rules basis for saying such a thing? Or any defense for it if protested?

Let's expand it a bit to further illustrate the point. Make it R1 and R3, a double steal. R1 holds up long enough for R3 to score, and R1 is then tagged. The defense then appeals the swing, and batter is called out. Do you score the run? (Of course not ... because the BR was the 3rd out ... same as if R3 did not exist.)

Then he'll get ejected just like anyone else who argues balls and strikes.

Sack up and do your job.

Check swing is easy call from A, B, C, or D. But some can't see a batter standing on the plate when making contact with a pitch. Holy cow!

I'm not looking for it. There's a difference.

I'm not looking for it either, but I can't miss it when I see it, it's right there in front of me and I am locked in and perfectly still. When the batter plants his foot on the plate the out call if he makes contact is far more important than a strike or ball call anyway.

How about we just leave it at the umpires who would call it, call it, and the umpires that would not call it, don't. This argument is getting tired.:(