Slide or avoid Contact
 

OK, if you guys are still talking to me because of my last post, I would like some insight here....

Playing NFHS rules. Runner in coming home with Catcher at the plate. Runner will beat the ball, the throw is up the line, right when the runner is about 10' from the plate, the catcher jumps up the line into the runner to catch the throw coming in. The runner has no time to react, and hits the catcher. The runner is called out for not avoiding contact. Seems like the right call, but just one of those situations that is not fair to the runner.

I don't think so
 

Sounds like a "train wreck" to me and those happen. Unless the catcher or runner intentionally made malicious contact, you don't have anything in this particular case.

Of the possible rulings on this play, ruling the runner out seems to be the incorrect one. Going by your post, if the catcher did not have the ball and positioned himself in the path of the runner this should have been called obstruction, if anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp Of the possible rulings on this play, ruling the runner out seems to be the incorrect one. Going by your post, if the catcher did not have the ball and positioned himself in the path of the runner this should have been called obstruction, if anything.

From the thread

the catcher jumps up the line into the runner to catch the throw coming in.

The aforementioned is not OBS. F2 hast he right to field a thrown ball. If the ball takes him/her into the path of the runner then so be it just like an over-throw to first base.

For some strange reason, whenever there is a collision in baseball, most think that something has to be called.

For the most part whenever you have close plays at the plate there will be contact and not all contact is malicious. From the strict wording of the thread unless one of the particpants did "something extra" I have nothing.

Pete Booth

Avoiding contact
 

I would drop the terminology that a runner is out for not avoiding contact.

That will not be a true statement most of the time, since baseball by nature will have lots of contact.

As long as its unintentioned then its usually a "play on" situation.

Thanks
David

Maybe I could have clearer, but I did say 'obstruction, if anything.' If there's no intent for anything malicious on either part I'm more inclined to call nothing and play on.

The catcher, in FED, has the right to field the ball "when a play is immenant", correct?

Thanks.

Correct
 

Any player has the right to make a play on the a throw or batted ball when a play is imminant. You can't tell afielder that they have to let a ground ball go through the infield because a baserunner was running in the baseline at the same time the ball was there.

Any catcher, under any rules, has the right to catch a ball where it is thrown.

I don't believe this to be true... under NCAA codes, even if the fielder is "in the act of fielding the ball", he is guilty of obstruction if "while not in posession of the ball, (he) impedes the progress of any runner."

(NCAA Rule 2)

LL now has the rule (similar to NCAA, ASA and Fed Softball) that the fielder must HAVE the ball to block the base(path).

This, of course, is referring to a thrown ball. Someone above mentioned a SS fielding a grounder-that is a whole other bucket of slugs altogether.

Joe

Official Interpretation from Dave Yeast: While a fielder may not block the base without the ball, a fielder may move into the path of a runner if he must do so to make a play, i.e., glove a throw. (San Diego MTG, Jan. 4/5, 2003)

In NCAA a catcher can not block the plate without the ball, but that assumes he sets up at the plate with purpose to block the plate. But in any game by any rules if he goes up the line to catch a wide throw he is not blocking the plate, he is fielding his position. If a train wreck happens, it happens. What you want the catcher to do, stand at the pate and say to himelf "I can't go after that wide throw, it might be considered obstruction"?

Hmmm.... I stand corrected. I hadn't heard of this interpretation. Thanks for setting me straight.

I know of no such ruling for Little League Baseball for such an allowance. (In Fed and ASA Softball there is no such allowance.) You cannot block without the ball period.

Joe

"The catcher, in FED, has the right to field the ball "when a play is immenant", correct?"

"Any player has the right to make a play on the a throw or batted ball when a play is imminant."

**Even when a play is IMMINENT.

"You can't tell afielder that they have to let a ground ball go through the infield because a baserunner was running in the baseline at the same time the ball was there."

**This has nothing to do with the question. Totally irrelevant.

Bob

Does LL Baseball interpret their OBR rules differently than MLB, or not at all? The catcher is not blocking the plate if he has to move up the line to catch a wide throw.

Little League has adopted the NCAA version of obstruction, and it has also adopted the NCAA interpretation that allows a fielder to come into the runner's path to field a throw. The LL interp was published in one of its quarterly Fair Ball newsletters.

I am glad to hear it.

If you are able to find the exact publication date, that would be very helpful.

Thanks!

Joe

Most of the time in these sitches, I've got a "nuttin', honey."

When offensive coaches scream for OBS, I say, "Why didn't your runner simply run to the base? The fielder never would have caught the ball!"

To the defense, "There is no slide/avoid rule here. Fielder didn't have the ball waiting to make the tag." (LL rule)

Ace

Malicious Contact supercedes Obstruction in games where there is a "slide or avoid" style rule. Whether or not the fielder is blocking the base without the ball, the runners are not allowed to barrel over them. They have to be making a legitimate effort to reach the base for contact to be allowed. If they are trying to knock the fielder down, they will be ejected.

Not in a NCAA game. Both obstruction and the malicious crash are penalized.

Touche.....:)

I've seen some leagues with a rule that explicitly says "malicioius contact supercedes obstruction," in which case this *******ized rule would allow an obstructed runner to be called out for malicious contact. I do not think it is correct, however, to apply this statement to any league with a "slide or avoid style rule." Little League, for example, has what many would call a "slide or avoid style rule," but they do not have any interpretation that says malicous contact supercedes obstruction. In fact, LL's slide or avoid rule is worded in such a way that there could never be a violation of the rule on an obstructed runner. There certainly could, however, be "malicious contact" by an obstructed runner, and the proper ruling would be to eject the runner for his unsportsmanlike conduct, and then place his substitute on the base he would have reached had the obstruction not occurred.

In other words, penalize the malicious contact, and penalize the obstruction. No superceding going on.

I have never effected a "malicious contact" call/EJ in over 1,000 games umpired. Every collision I have seen was either legal (in my post-grad summer league work, MLB rules) or simply a train wreck.

I once called a runner out for using his arms to interfere with F2's apply of a tag. Off. coach wanted MC, but I flat didn't see the reason for an EJ.

My pernt is that, especially with young 'uns, elders view any collision as some sort of mortal sin. All I've seen are venial ones.

Ace

I don't recall ever seeing a malicious hit at any age less than 15, but I usually get one or two a year at the teenage/high school level.

I have seen a few at younger ages, but none as memorable as having to eject Marcus Giles in a Pony League game for doing a Pete Rose vs. Ray Fosse impersonation. He went airborne and clocked this catcher, dislodging the ball and knocking the catcher on his butt. I called, "Safe, Time, you're gone, Marcus. You know you can't do that."

He hasn't changed a bit.:)

I could send you some tapes, 2 events, 2 different years, players age 10 and 11. I submitted these tapes to Babe Ruth baseball and requested the rules be changed (Babe Ruth did not recognize MC at the time), and they were about 2 years later. I hope my tapes helped.

The catcher was my son in both cases. The first one was in a 10 year old all star tournament and he was making his 2nd start ever at catcher (there is a story for that also) so clearly this was his first experience with being crashed. He went to the ground still holding the ball in his glove, jumped up removed the ball from his glove with his right hand and dropped it on the other boy's chest who was still laying on the ground, without saying a word. A catcher was born that day.

Whom would you eject, PWL?
F2? R3?

FED: I had an absolutely brutal hit in a U14 travel league game this year. The catcher was standing there waiting for the runner and not prepared to have a felonious assault on his person. It was BAD. Somehow, the catcher was not injured. I called Time and ejected the kid and looked at the 3rd base coach-we both reaized that he had 9 players that day and this double header was ending in the 1st inning of game two.(always get your cash BEFORE the first pitch:-)

I had a malicious contact in the LL Juniors District on a stolen base attempt.

Joe

I never worry too much about getting paid. Out here, if a league doesn't want to pay the umpires for some reason, they get no more umpires until they do so.

Slide or avoid contact
 

In this situation, from how you described the play, I have incidental contact.Obstruction seems a bit of a stretch here. The key here is was the contact " malicious". I have nothing here.
KCB