The Official Forum - When do you call out?

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Danger, Thin Ice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

In the first situation, the issue is not really deciding whether the fielder has secure control, it is knowing, FOR SURE, where the ball is and confirming that it is in the possession of the fielder who made the tag. "Show me the ball" is a perfectly appropriate and common means of making that determination.

Now, to deal with the drop in situation 1 and the issue in situation 2, Evans speaks of the concept of "he had it long enough" to confirm secure possession, even in the absence of a voluntary and intentional release. The "long enough" principle clearly applies in both your situations. In fact, it's why nobody argued with your out call in the first situation, even when the fielder ultimately dropped the ball out of his glove. Everybody "gets it," intuitively.

Be careful here Dave. IMO, this is one of the most difficult to defend positions regarding catch/no catch.
What exactly is long enough? If you're discussing this play with a manager, how do you describe what is long enough? The party of the second part in a discussion will most likely ask for a time frame (is 3 seconds long enough?)

It all comes back to the player demonstrating complete control of the ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctblu40

And demonstrating "complete control" and then subsequently dropping the ball involuntarily and unintentionally is, if ruled a catch, nothing more than adopting the "he had it long enough" principle.

"Complete control" is not the rulebook criteria. "Voluntary and intentional release" is, and it is inadequate as the sole determinant of whether a ball was caught or not.

If your guideline is "complete control" but you ignore a subsequent drop of the ball, then you're using Evans' "long enough" guideline whether you acknowledge it or not.

Hmmm? Me thinks you're right. I do use the "long enough" criteria.

So what about explaining this to the manager? It seems as thought their argument is always "He had it long enough."
What response could one use that would not initiate the what is the time frame question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctblu40

"long enough" refers to actions, not to elapsed time.

Catch or no Catch

I was under the impression from the rule book that the fielder who caught the ball had to physically remove the ball from the glove in order for it to be called an out. Now with that said, I'm one of those who use the "he had it long enough" thing, which after reading some posts here is the wrong thing to say. But if the rule book says the fielder has to physically remove it from the glove in order for it to be an out...and after the fielder runs 50-feet towards the mound after making the catch which was the 3rd out then drops the ball from his glove, and the coach uses the physically remove the ball thing, what do you do then? Of course this is all hypothetically but what the hell, it could happen...it's baseball where there's a winner and a loser and no one likes to lose!

What you do is NOT use the 'physically remove the ball' idea exclusively. There is not set time, just 'long enough' to demonstrate that for purposes of the catch the fielder showed sufficient control.

The fact that time elapses during this process does not mean the umpire is waiting for a set amount of time to elapse :D

Dave Hensley is right on here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle George

But if the rule book says the fielder has to physically remove it from the glove in order for it to be an out...

?!?!?!

If your rulebook says this, I suggest you get another one. Yours appears to be for Calvinball.