7-8-06 Cardinals @ Astros
 

I do not want my lack of confidence in Bob Davidson's judgement to color my opinion of this play.

In the bottom of the 11th, Roy Oswalt was pinch hitting with 2 outs and hit what appeared to be a double. La Russa asked for his team to appeal that Oswalt did not touch first base. Davidson called him out. The replays show that he was, at least, EXTREMELY close to the base. He did not step on top of the base, that much id for darn sure. He may or may not have touched it. Jose Cruz, Sr. was coaching first and did some gyrations and may have said something that might have influenced Davidson

Questions for those who have seen the replays or saw it live.

1) I was taught to call out a runner on an appeal of this sort ONLY if I am sure that he missed the base. Am I right in this standard? From what I can see, there is no freaking way that Davidson could be sure that Oswalt missed the base.

2) Was Davidson where he belonged on this play?

3) Are you as shocked as I am that Garner did not go out and murder Davidson?

Joe

Really bad angle = Guess
 

I saw the game and this play. Base Ump was looking at the base, but there was no way he could see either a "touch" or "no touch" by Oswalt from where he was standing. he obsereved the play from position A. I'm not sure that moving a couple of steps into fair territory would have improved his angle on this play, but it certainly could not have hurt.

First base coach, Jose Cruz, made some sort of motions/pointing, etc. as Oswalt ran by, but not sure why or what he was trying to signal. ESPN had two different angles on the replay and it was impossible to tell for sure that Oswalt did not touch the base.

The umpire had to be influenced by the actions of Cruz. I suspect the Cards only appealed the missed base because of Cruz's actions, because it certainly appeared that Oswalt had touched the base... even in slow-mo replay.

I do not know how he could have ruled that the runer missed the base, when there was no possible way he could have seen it. He was simply guessing, and it appears that he guessed wrong. Tough call right or wrong.

There are some situations where you can judge by player reaction what happened. I was taught that this is not one of them: call an out on appeal only when you saw one yourself, unmistakeably.

That said, I must say it's annoying when, all game long, I've had touches and tags at a given base, and then some coach wants an appeal. When I signal "safe" he mutters, "eh, he wasn't watching." Yeah, right coach.

In the Houston Chronicle today, it says that Garner agreed with Davidson's call.

I've had this happen before to me when i've umped. Coach argued that the runner didnt touch third,and i was stuck at home with a play coming in,and my baseump was stuck with his duties at first and second as a possible play there. Neither one of us saw it so we had to rule he did touch it because if you dont see it you have to call the guy safe,whether he was or wasnt.

Not a surprize Davidson was part of this. I dont think he's that great of an ump,i didnt see the play so i'm going off of what you guys have said but it appears he made the right call,but if he didnt see it,he should have said safe.Oh well stuff like that happens.

I say--EASY call.

Davidson did not see him miss the base so he MUST call safe!

Instead of a runner in scoring position with the leadoff batter coming up, the inning was over and the Astros lost the game in the next inning.

He had time to think it over. He KNEW he did not see Oswalt miss the base. He decided to make a horse-dookey call.

Joe

Why are you guys going off on Davidson? Did you not see that the team's manager agreed with the call?

I am a Tigers fan, I have always thought Garner was a moron, anyway.

Whether Oswalt missed the base or not is not the issue here.

The issue is that Davidson made a lousy call because he could not have known if Oswalt missed the base.

Joe

A rat could not have said it any better (or worse as the case may be).

Oh good grief!

So, as long as the umpire guesses right(which there is no evidence that he did in this case) it is ok that he was just guessing?

Davidson made the WRONG call because he did not see Oswalt miss the base.

Joe

And you can say this with 100% certainty? Don't get me wrong. I think Davidson is a poor professional umpire, but I'm wondering how you can say for sure he didn't see him miss the bag.


Tim.

I'm confused????
 

:confused: How is it possible that people can say with certainty Davidson was guessing?

I find it amazing that all of you know what he saw and what he didn't see based on watching him on TV in your livingroom...

Wellllll, for one thing, he is a poor professional umpire:D

The slow motion replays could not show for sure and they had a better angle than he did. He was looking at it full speed from down the line. Oswalt's foot came down right by the home plate side of the base.

And, he is a hack.

Joe

I can't say for 100% certainty whether Oswalt touched the bag or not... but I saw the play, and from 3 cameras (someone said there were only 2 angles on ESPN - there were three). All I'm certain of is that there was no way Davidson could have seen the miss from where he was standing. The foot was VERY close (if not touching), and Davidson was blocked from seeing whether there was a miss by the base itself.

If you'd seen the replay, you would not question this either.

That said, I'm POSITIVE this one was Cruz's fault. He made some sort of arm motion and perhaps uttered something. As the coach you can't halfway this call. Either do NOTHING, or you're yelling, "BACK BACK BACK" at the runner.

Based on his reaction during the play, Oswalt's reaction after and Garner's lack of reaction, I suspect he missed it. But there's NO QUESTION Davidson guessed this call or based it on the actions of Cruz.

I think it was probably Cruz's actions that caused Davidson to make such a lousy call.

That is an explanation, not an excuse, though. The excuse is that he is a poor professional umpire.:D

Scotty, which runner did you miss touching 3rd?

There were guys on first and second and there was a hit to the outfielder,the runner on second came around and scored,then the ball went to the cutoff and the throw was to home for the runner that was on first,after the safe call was made my me at home the assistant coach from the team that was in the field made a scene saying he never touched third. So it was the second runner,or the guy on first. My base ump was doing his duties at first and second since the throw could have(and probably should have)gone to second to get the out. My boss happened to see the play and said we were both in the right position,and that if the runner did miss the bag,he missed it short,which would have been hard to see for the base ump anyway.

I commited to home since that in my oppinion was the more important base at that time. Usually I work in a 3 man crew but we had two that night. I'm not all that concered the run didnt make an outcome in the game anyway,i was just stating that it happened to me.

I agree that in a 2 man crew it can be difficult to watch everything going on. I think what we sometimes get 'fixated' on watching players running around we forget that there is no reason to have our eyes anywhere but on the baseball unless the baseball takes us to a base or player. Somewhere we have lost the concept of "watch the ball, glance at the runner's".

My point, our "job" is to watch for touch/tags at the bases we are responsible for, and to cover "plays" at those bases when the ball and runner ends up there. Any other time, all eyes should be on the ball. In most cases, as PU, you will have time to glance at runner's rounding third for the touch, and still be able to make the call at the plate.

You are correct in those rare cases where you can't watch for a touch, you have to call the runner safe on appeal.

Detroit Rise
 

I follow PUDGE and DETROIT was really a terrible choice (my opinion).

Now Detroit has a manager, a solid offense and pitching. Not one, but two FLAMERS with a TAIL WHIPPING component on the end of their fastballs. That is something the Texas Rangers could never find. I bet you'll get a RISE out them if they go on to win the 2006 World Series. I have to ask. How old is your new wagon?

Sounds like a lot of fan gripping. Davidson was 15-20 feet from the base and most on here were hundreds of miles from the base. From what I saw in the replay it is certainlly possible that he missed the base and Davidson had the second best seat in the house to call the play. Cruz had the best angle and he certainly made a reaction that could have influenced Davidson to think that we thought he just saw was in fact what he just saw.

And Garner did not argue the call...

Three replay angles were better than Davidson's angle and they were inconclusive. There is no freaking way that anyone can claim he was not guessing. If he got it right(which he does not know, Garner does not know and we do not know) he got it because he had a 50/50 chance. It was a lousy decision by him in the 11th inning of a game.

Davidson did not see a base missed. Garner did not see a base missed. Cruz may have seen it.

Davidson blew it because he is a poor professional umpire.

Joe

A very common and generally accepted principle of umpiring - especially effective at higher levels - is "let the players call the game for you." In this case, the base coach made gestures that looked very much like HE thought the runner missed the base. If the umpire's view was not perfect, but at least supported a conclusion that the runner very well may have missed the base, then the base coach's actions were enough to tip the preponderance of the evidence into the "he missed it" column.

The fact that the manager did not even come out to discuss the call is telling, also.

Yeppers, think so. Still.

First, I agree that Oswalt probably did miss the base.

Second, I agree that there are calls where an umpire uses, let's call it "external input" other than his own eyes and ears to make a call. But in every clinic I've ever attended, a missed base is NOT one of those calls. This is a call that you HAVE to see to make. Davidson guessed.

Perhaps he guessed right, but that doesn't make it less of a guess.

If you have to guess on a missed bag, he HAS to be safe.

There are times when you can use external means to make a call in sports (I know soccer is a different sport, but in the WC Final, the assistant referee definatly glanced at the JumboTron to see what happened since nobody saw it).

Do you think there's ever plays that lead umpires in the MLB to have a conference and conveniently have one positioned to be glancing at the scoreboard?

They generally don't show close/controversial plays on scoreboards in the stadium. So i would say probably not in answer to your question. But it seems like a logical idea.

It seems to me that Bob D. just likes the call that puts him in the limelight. He also made a very questionable call in the World Baseball Classic where he called a player out for leaving third early in one of the semi-finals. Replays showed he actually left late. So many good umpires in AAA and this guys is working in the big leagues again....????

FWIW, I watched Davidson work a plate a couple of weeks ago (TV game) and thought he had a much more reasonable strikezone than the typically overly tight zone most MLB umps have. He was actually calling some corners.

Please!
 

Anyone on this forum ever spent any time with Bob D? He is great with us "amateur" umpires. Always ready to talk and help us. Sure he has a rep for the balk call but I've never seen a replay that proved his balk call incorrect.

Those that bad mouth Bob are, I'll bet, the same ones that bad mouthed Big John M before his untimely death. He was another that loved to talk plate mechanics with "amateur's". Did he have a wideeeee strike zone? You bet, but for both teams. Adjust!

Is Bob D the best umpire in major league baseball? Most of us would agree he isn't. But does he belong in the majors? D*** right!!

I don't care either way about Mr. Davidson. All of my comments would have been exactly the same, regardless of the umpire involved.

Regardless of one's opinion of Bob, this whole discussion about his call being poor is ridiculous. ESPN wasn't on the field, so citing their replays is asinine. Davidson WAS on the field, and if he was SURE Oswalt missed the base, how can anyone here argue about that?

Does someone here know for a fact that Bob didn't really and accurately see the missed base? Did you hear Bob state that? If so, please do tell; otherwise, it's best one stifle his comments on it being a bad call.

I know enough about simple geometry to figure out that he had no way of knowing if Oswalt missed the base.

To assume that just because he made the call, he was sure is beyond absurd. To use your logic, MLB umps do not miss calls at all, because they only make calls when they are "sure".

Joe

Astros finished 1 game out
 

Perhaps Garner had no idea just how close the Astros would come.
Perhaps LaRussa did.