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-   -   Catch? Out? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/27244-catch-out.html)

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:21am
To all,

I don't want to take a cheap shot at PWL, even though I would be well within my rights to do so. I honestly believe that he doesn't understand certain rules, and he's not trying to provoke us.

CoachJM, Both BigUmp56 and I have tried to explain rules and procedures to him in the past, to which we have both been subjected to the name-calling and personal attacks ever since. We were both honestly trying to help him to be a better umpire, and perhaps we got a bit carried away in the way we presented it, and made sport of him.

I have long since apologized to PWL for any personal attacks, real or perceived, and have offered an olive branch. I have yet to hear any change in attitude, or acceptance of any apology.

Steve

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:34pm
I thought you were Jim Evans.:confused:

:D

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:42pm
And you're still wrong. Notice that there is no distinction between fair and foul under Rule 2.00 CATCH. The runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. If a the ball then becomes an uncaught foul, then the runner(s) must return.

However, they may leave as soon as the ball is touched, whether in fair or foul ground. Otherwise, the reason the rule is there in the first place would be useless.

The rule is there to prevent shenanigans that outfielders used to pull back in the days prior to the rule. They would juggle the ball all the way in to the infield, so that the runners could never score on sacrifice fly situations, both fair and foul.

By your logic, the fielders could do the same BS manuevers they did way back when. Just tip the ball in the air as they ran in from the outfield.

That is why you are wrong, and everyone else is right.

Rich Ives Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:43pm
MLB RULE 7.08 (d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught.

And the rule defining legally caught says the runners can leave when first touched. What's so hard to comprehend here?

BigUmp56 Fri Jun 30, 2006 01:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
MLB RULE 7.08 (d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught.

And the rule defining legally caught says the runners can leave when first touched. What's so hard to comprehend here?

For a rational person, there's nothing even remotely hard to comprehend here, Rich. Trouble is we're dealing with an irrational thought process. Jim Evans told him this nonsense? I don't think so.


Tim.

BigUmp56 Fri Jun 30, 2006 02:35pm
Baaaa, baaaaa, baaaaa...............


LMAO at your expense.


Tim.

BigUmp56 Fri Jun 30, 2006 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Where do you come up with this crap? Did I cite the 2.00 the definition of a catch? NO. I cited 7.08(d). Why wouldn't the rule simply say a caught fly ball? It says fair or foul ball is caught. It doesn't say touched. Their is a difference between a fair and foul ball. Runners can and are forced to do different things on a fair and foul ball.

I also pointed out that it is one of the poorly worded rules of baseball. Now if anybody cares to find out the real answer, I gave you a very viable option.

Steve, this is why you are wrong and you and everyone else are sheep.

Well, since it says both fair or foul the passage is inclusive of any fly ball. It's not poorly worded. It's just a ruling you need to make by combining two different rules. Something good umpires have to do. It's amazing that you just cannot ever accept the fact that you're wrong. I'll bet the coaches and protest committees love you.


Tim.

lmathews19 Fri Jun 30, 2006 02:58pm
just leave it alone guys. This guy obviously cannot see the light and is too proud too admit he made a mistake. However, PWL, you made all of us get a good laugh today. Thanks alot :D !!

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 03:06pm
Ask Vanna if you can buy a clue
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Where do you come up with this crap? Did I cite the 2.00 the definition of a catch? NO. I cited 7.08(d).
I came up with this "crap" by studying the history and customs and usages of the rules throughout the history of baseball.

The runners can leave the base as soon as the fielder touches the ball. That is just as simple as it can be stated.

I agree that 7.08(d) is poorly written, but the runners don't have to "wait and see" if the ball is eventually caught in fair or foul ground. If it is foul, and not caught, the umpire will call, "Foul" and then the runner(s) will return to his(their) original base(s).

Dave Hensley Fri Jun 30, 2006 03:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Where do you come up with this crap? Did I cite the 2.00 the definition of a catch? NO. I cited 7.08(d). Why wouldn't the rule simply say a caught fly ball? It says fair or foul ball is caught.
There is also a rule elsewhere in the rulebook that refers to a "lefthanded or righthanded pitcher." Is there any other kind?

As you said yourself, the rule is poorly worded. It says "legally caught" when it should say "first touched and then legally caught." Lots of rules in the rulebook are poorly worded, which is why we have clarifications in the form of Casebook Comments, and official and authoritative interpretive manuals. The rulebook is like a really important contract written by a really bad lawyer.

In this particular case, the cliche "in a fight between you and the world, back the world" is completely applicable. You're in a minority of 1 in your erroneous intepretation.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 04:02pm
From the BRD:

FED: A baserunner may leave his base as soon as a fly ball is touched by the first fielder. (8-2-4)

NCAA: Same as FED. (8-6a-1)

OBR: Same as FED. "Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. (2.00 Catch CMT 1)

Carl goes on to point out the inconsistencies contained in OBR, and again in this case, Rule 7.10(a) is in place only to make sure that the runner does not get a "running start" from a point behind the base, IOW, he must start in contact with the base. It also states "after the ball is caught" but it too should read "after first touched by a fielder."

ctblu40 Fri Jun 30, 2006 05:30pm
Are we really arguing about this?
 
Look at the comment attached to rule 2-
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

There are many problems with the official rules, but this one seems to be one such problem that everyone I've ever talked to agrees upon.

I'm failing to understand where you're coming from with thi PWL. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but help me understand your logic...:confused:

ctblu40 Fri Jun 30, 2006 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
According to the rule book 7.08(d) he can only advance when the ball is caught. Too many people are trying to merge the definition of a catch into a completely different situation altogether.

Where does 7.10(a) have anything to do with this?

Does not anybody think with 237 errors (or more) in the rules of baseball, you could be looking at least two of them.
You have to merge the def of a catch with this sitch because a runner can only advance when the ball is caught. Try to look up the correct application of the rule as though you have no prior knowledge of the rules. After seeing d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;


The next logical step would be to find out what a catch is and then you read ...Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

BigUmp56 Fri Jun 30, 2006 06:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Hopefully, I'm talking to to some one who can look at things in a little different perspective. Just leave the rule to the side for a minute. If a ball is hit in fair ground you do not need the definition of a catch to advance, only a touch is required. If the ball is hit into foul territory, a fielder may bobble it five times and then drop it and no advance will take place. You need a legal catch to advance. Now 7.08(d) refers that a fair or foul ball be caught legally.

I have offered a solution to anyone that wants to take me up on the offer. I have spoken to Mr. Evans on this subject and this is answer he gave me. He stated that only a touch is required in fair territory, but a catch is required in foul territory. Never was a first touch brought up in the conversation, but he did imply that the rule was written incorrectly. So to me a definition of catch must be meet before a runner can legally tag when a play is being made on him in foul territory.
I finally see where you're coming from. What you've been trying to say is that on a foul fly ball it's a moot point as to whether or not the runner can advance on first touch if the ball is dropped. Simply put it's a foul ball dead ball. However, the play we've been discussing has the ball being legally caught, although it's been caught by a second fielder over foul territory where the ball remains live and in play. This means that the defintion of a legal catch has to be looked at to make a proper ruling. And we all know that on a legal catch the runner can advance on first contact.


Tim.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jun 30, 2006 06:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
WAY TO LIE SDS.......

FED RULE 8-2-4 reads...if a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched the fielder.

TOUCH....To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

Now back to the subject at hand. Fielder touches fly ball in fair territory and it hits the ground. No tag up is necessary. Fielder touches fly ball in foul territory and ball hit ground, it is just a strike, runner cannot advance. According to the rule book 7.08(d) he can only advance when the ball is caught. Too many people are trying to merge the definition of a catch into a completely different situation altogether.

Where does 7.10(a) have anything to do with this?

Does not anybody think with 237 errors (or more) in the rules of baseball, you could be looking at least two of them.
Where did I lie? I copied that whole thing word for word from the BRD. Do you mean that Carl is lying? Then call him a liar.

7.10(a) is listed there along with the touch requirements just to illustrate the inconsistency in the language of the rule, just like you are saying about the errors in the book. In that there are errors, we agree. But there are interpretations in place that specify which rule to go by.

Carl goes on to say, in touch requirements, to just go by rule 2.00 Catch: Comment 1, which states that on any fly ball, the runners can leave their bases as soon as the first fielder TOUCHES the ball!!!

That is the ruling to use in all fly ball situations. Do you get that?


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