Ball thrown to 1st base after BB/Walk ????
 

Hi all Noob here,



Batter is walked and I have the catcher throw the ball to 1st base after every walk is there a ruling which stipulates this as an illegal proceeding?

The batter reached 1st and then left the bag while knowing 1st has the ball in his glove.---- It is not a trick play just good warmup throw for my catcher for the steal throw---- which sometimes in games the runner forgets and gets tagged. Blue ruled no call and illegal throw.

Blue told me that it was an illegal throw that the ball is to go back to he pitcher before any other base in a walk. I did this in h.s. ball and it was legal then. This is a juniors ll team. I cannot find a ruling in the rule book on this.

The runner turned twoard second-- not overran the bag!

Nothing illegal about it.

What is juniors II...Little League?

Yes 13-14 age group.

Thanks for your reply.



Snail....

I've never worked Little League. I suppose it's possible they have some weird little rule; but it seems more likely that your umpire is a little league umpire, rather than an umpire working Little League....know what I mean?

that isnt why you do it...come on...

My son started doing this when he was 10 or 11. Sometimes it worked. You can't do it every time or it will never work. If you find a particular batter who tends to step off the bag, he is the one to try it on.

Nothing illegal about it.

Little League isn't that weird
 

There is no such rule in LL, Juniors or any other division.

I don't know if LL really has more phantom rules enforcement than other youth organizations, but I sure wish it had less.

At the very least, I'm beginning to think that LL doesn't help by having no real online repository of rules and interpretations.

Of course, no interp is needed to understand that there's no throw first to pitcher rule.

(In proofing this post, I think it may not fail to set some kind of record for compound negatives.)

When I was in Little League (okay, I'll admit it...it was 29 years ago), I was on an All-star team that did this same thing. It was legal then...it's legal now. Sounds like someone played "invent-a-rule" because he didn't like this play.

Now, I've invented a 15 runs after 3 mercy rule, but that's another story.

Situation described in the OP, as I understand, is a legal play.

Now, I've invented a 15 runs after 3 mercy rule, but that's another story.[/QUOTE]

That's the NFHS mercy rule (along with the 10 after 4 1/2 or 5) which I like.
It seems tough for LL to adopt this mercy rule because of the "mandatory play" requirements.
Sam

I am not aware of a NFHS 15 after 3 mercy rule. AAU uses this rule, but not NFHS.

This was in rec ball...14-15 year olds. Coach didn't have a clue and the kids were out of control. Called ballgame after three innings and no one complained on the field or in the stands.

15 run rule
 

I think the 15 run rule is a state modification of FED rules. We have it in the state of PA in the PIAA.

Could you be more specific about the Walk.

Was it a Walk on 4 pitched Balls, or an Issued Walk ?

In some leagues, NFHS included, when you issue a Walk (elect to not pitch to the batter), the ball becomes dead. Hence, throwing to 1st is a no call, and can be considered a delay of game, if the ball isn't back to the pitcher when the next batter is ready.

With respect to the NFHS Mercy Rule:

4-2-2:...By state association adoption, the game shall end when the visiting team is behind 10 or more runs after 4 1/2 innings, or after the fifth inning, if either team is 10 runs behind and both teams have had an equal number of times at bat.

Since this is a Little League Juniors game, there are no issued walks. Four pitches are required at every level of Little League baseball, despite what some coaches tried to slip past me lately! The ball remains alive and in play, and no such rule exists that requires the catcher to throw it back to the pitcher before it can go to another base. Somebody making up their own rules again.

Umpire Working Little League

4 ball walk ---I was livid about it/runner turned to second he was tagged he was an out that turned into a next batted dbl---- rbi. So I had my catcher stop doing it that game..

I spoke to the league admin about it after answers here and he also agreed it was a legal play and would council that blue.

You guys roxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Thanks,
Snail

Actually it is -- at this level of play the arms are still seeking targets and from my own catching experience it helps set the arm up for the steal. Muscle memory is what my coach told me and it really works well for distance judgement. Then the catcher sets up his throw as a throw over the pitchers head and with the known throw to first he puts the right amount of oomph on it to second. Serious......

Whenever catchers at this level whom arms are underdeveloped throw they have a hard time judging how hard to throw. This really helps a lot because they can easily hit 1st or 3rd but find it harder to hit second. We have a huge league and finding a catcher with a cannon thats not on the trny team is very difficult.

Two definitions of the why and it does get some bb/runners who make the turn.

Snail....

Ammended ruling that you didnt have to pitch the ball and could ask for a intentional walk in the juniors division.

Quote:

Why is the intentional base on balls rule different in the Little League Division than in the upper age divisions? In the 13-and-up divisions, could the defense intentionally waive a batter to first at any time in the count? Andy: The rule was passed by the volunteer district administrators at the Congress in Virginia Beach last year, so it was really up to them. There’s more info here: http://www.littleleague.org/media/04congressends.asp. The “automatic” intentional walk in the 13-and-up divisions can only be invoked if there is no count on the batter.

Steve:

Pitches are not required to issue an intentional walk in juniors and above in Little League.

8.04

Note.

[JUNIOR/SENIOR/BIG LEAGUE BASEBALL: Intentional Walk - Before a ball is delivered to the batter, the catcher must inform the umpire-in-chief that the defensive team wishes to give the batter an intentional base-on-balls. The umpire-in-chief waves the batter to first base. The ball is dead.]


Tim.

I'm sorry, but I must agree with Brian. That explanation sounds like such BS.
It's a play used to catch an opponent napping,which is fine.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. ;)

At Junior, Senior, and Big League levels, a dead ball intentional walk can be issued. Rule 8.04 in your Woody Woodchuck Manual:

Junior/Senior/Big League Intentional Walk Rule: Before a ball is delivered to the batter, the catcher must inform the umpire-in-chief that the defensive team wishes to give the batter an intentional base-on-balls. The umpire-in-chief waves the batter to first base. The ball is dead.

You know, I thought that was the case, and I looked and looked in the book and couldn't find it. I was about to post the same thing, as I thought I remembered that JR/SR/Big had the automatic walk rule. I even remembered that it was different than the FED rule in that it had to happen before a pitch to the batter.

I did not even think to look in Section 8. I looked in Definitions and base on balls said when 4 balls are delivered to the batter, so I thought I must have imagined it. Then I looked in the RIM and it said the same thing under rule 6.08 on how a batter becomes a runner, and again it said 4 balls were required. By this time I thought perhaps I was just losing my mind (and Jon Lovitz was reaping all the benefits). You would also think that Intentional Walk or words to that effect would be listed in the index, which they're not.

Last I looked, the fact that the batter turned toward second after reaching first on a walk did not place him in jeopardy (except in FED). I thought the BR had to make an attempt to advance toward second??

The batter must return immediately to first after overrunning it. Making a left turn at the base in the direction of 2nd is considered an attempt. Merely turning around to the left and going back to the base after running straight though the base is not.

Napping is good but if you knew my teams stats you would think its an awesome truth.

7 year LL title holders :Dand noone stole on us. It was pure luck or overthrown pitch if they made it.

If your a catcher throwing the ball back to the pitcher---that in itself creates a muscle memory---- that at this age--- judging distance becomes a task. It helps ..... Serious...

But I do like the red lipstick---matches our team jersey.:o;)

That FED ruling is on a batted ball only, where the batter reached 1B safely. On a 4 ball walk,the batter runner CAN be tagged out if he touches 1st and then overstepps or walks past.

By whom????

The batter-runner who just walked.

Making a turn toward second and returning immediately to first is NOT an attempt to advance to second. In LL, the catcher throws to first on a BOB in an attempt to dupe an umpire into calling the BR out if the runner over-runs first or if the BR "turns left". The BR does NOT have to turn right in order to be safe.

I hope some of us aren't being duped by that move. Get it right!!!

The rules are different for a batter who walked than for a batter who got a hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Making a left turn at the base in the direction of 2nd is considered an attempt.


By whom????
__________________
GB


Uh, I think with the question "by whom," Garth was wondering who considers a left turn in the direction of 2nd to be an attempt. He wasn't wondering who was making the alleged attempt.

You misunderstood.

You posted: "Making a left turn at the base in the direction of 2nd is considered an attempt."

My question: By whom is it considered an attempt? Turning left, in and of itself, is not an attempt.

In all fairness to Steve I think he was saying that turning to the left at the bag on a walk would be considered an attempt to advance to second, where turning to the left after over running the bag in and of itself would not be considered an attempt.


Tim.

Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you. As I stated before, turning left after overrunning the base is not an attempt as long as the runner makes no bluff toward 2nd and returns to the base immediately.

What I was referring to, Garth, was a phenomenon usually associated with Little League Majors and Minors, of which I realize you have never worked or watched a game in your entire life:D . That is when a batter walks, he sprints to 1st base, and then he turns and takes a few quick steps toward 2nd in order to draw a throw from the catcher or pitcher before the pitcher can get on the rubber and the catcher in his box. They do this ad nauseum, in fact on nearly every base on balls. Kids...go figure!

Even if the pitcher and catcher are in position the runner can keep going.

Turn left vs attempt.
 

OBR Rules - Rule Myths
2. The batter-runner must turn to his right after over-running first base.
BTW
1. The hands are considered part of the bat.

-------------
RIGHT TURN RULE MYTH
The batter-runner may turn left or right, provided that if he turns left he does not make an attempt to advance. An attempt is a judgment made by the umpire. The requirement is that the runner must immediately return to first after overrunning or oversliding it.

Rule: 7.08(c and j)

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/ru...ths/index.cfm?

Submitted by: Jim Booth

As Others Already Suggest
 

OBR Rules - Rule Myths
9. The batter may not overrun first base when he gets a base-on-balls.

OVERRUN FIRST BASE RULE MYTH
Rule 7.08(c and j) simply state that a batter-runner must immediately return after overrunning first base. It doesn't state any exceptions as to how the player became a runner. It could be a hit, walk, error or dropped third strike.
In Little League the runner may overrun. In FED rules he may not and in Professional baseball, he may not. In other programs that use the OBR he may if that is how the program rules it.
To overrun means that the runners momentum carried him straight beyond the base after touching it. It does not mean to turn and attempt to advance. Nor does it mean that he stepped over it or stopped on it and then got off of it.

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/ru...ths/index.cfm?

Submitted by: Jim Booth

Okay, isn't this what I just said? I think we all know this by now, SA. We are a bit past the myths here.

Okay Rich, at what point do I make the runner go back to first base when the rest of us are ready for the first pitch to the next batter? Doesn't the runner have to go back to the base eventually? I'm a novice at this Little League stuff, so help me out here.

Booth's ruling for MLB baseball (runner may not overrun) is obsolete, superceded by an interpretation that the runner may overrun without liability, published in the MLBUM in 2002. Booth's ruling was based on a Jim Evans interpretation in Baseball Rules Annotated.

You don't "make the runner go back to first base..." while the ball is live; instead, you let the battery get set and if the runner is off his base when the battery is set, then let the pitcher pitch and throw your little red flag.

There's an exception to that, Dave. As you know, when a runner is still making a legitimate attempt to advance he doesn't have to return as soon as the battery is set.


RIM COMMENTS

"When a runner is legitimately off his/her base, the pitcher cannot stop the runner by taking the ball back to the pitcher’s plate."



Tim.