Batter runner bunts the ball down the 3rd baseline. The ball stops right next to the foul line but does not touch the foul line. However, part of the ball is over fair territory but is not physically touching fair ground. Is it a fair ball?
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On Astroturf, of course... really..
Fair of course, regardless what any technical defn may determine.
You're sitch can only really happen on glass-flat astroturf and a painted line with a razor sharp edge and a perfect round ball. But what you described, from the OVERHEAD camera, the ball is "touching" as in has broken the plane of the outer edge of the painted foul (fair) line... The hands are still part of the bat, after all. from the GLOBAL HDQTRS EWS |
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BUT: Richard Fetchiet, the rules interpreter for the NCAA, on 4/20/01 ruled that a ball as you describe is a FAIR BALL at their level. |
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Have tried to visualize this situtation, but really having problem. Is ball suspended? You say not touching foul line and not touching fair ground. Y'all playing with a ballon???:D glen |
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But wait.... Is the ball fair or foul? The plate umpire in the minor league game got down on all fours to examine the ball. No part of the ball was <b>touching</b> the chalk. But, because of the curvature of the ball, part of it was "breaking the plane" of the foul line. I just did an experiment in my kitchen, using a tile grout as the foul line. I calculate that upwards of a half-inch of the ball extended ACROSS into fair territory. (Remember, ALL of the foul line is fair.) I'm serching through my records to find out what the minor league umpire ruled. I still think it's a foul ball, but in a college game.... |
It's a round thingy
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Horizontal tangent is touching foul. Inside vertical tangent intersects chalk. I'm with Carl. I'd like to call foul because it is touching foul, and not touching fair. mick |
Scary
Respectfull submitted of course, but you guys are whacky. I can visualize this easily.. you will have a ball that an entire set of stands will SEE as "touching" the painted foul (fair) line on the astroturf. Who cares a bleep if it is TOUCHING.. who the hell would know.
Call this FAIR and there is no (little) argument. Call this FOUL, and if the offended coach sees it like you do... your gonna get an earful (deservedly so). HEY, get that coach back in the coaches box... geez. [QUOTE]Originally posted by mick . I'm with Carl. I'd like to call foul because it is touching foul, and not touching fair. mick |
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Learn the game !!! ;-) Freix |
If the last 1/4" of a fly ball hits the foul pole and the ball glances off the foul pole to the foul side, it's a home run isn't? Other than the distance travelled, what's the difference here?
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I've always called this fair. It's been my belief that if any part of the ball is over fair territory it's fair. I've had balls settle this way and never had a gripe about the call. Have even gotten a good call from the guy it went against.
I'd be interested to see if CC comes up w/ anything that backs me up or if I've been wrong all these years. Bob |
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I'd have to go along withe the fair ball call. A fair ball is a ball that passes OVER fair territory when passing first or third base.
OK, it didn't pass first or third base but stopped short OVER fair ball territory. It doesn't have to touch fair ball territory. It doesn't say the whole ball has to be over the base on fair territory. If it breaks the plane, which this did, I've got it fair and in play. BTW if you want to see the umpire down on all fours examining the ball on the foul line, check out the Norman Rockwell collection. He painted it. G. |
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I'm not yanking your chain. Here is the way I see it, the ball touching the dirt but the last 1/8 of the ball or so, I'm estimiting here is over the line. If the same ball was at the pole, the ball would hit it.
Now I have to admit...when I've seen it, I didn't get on all fours to check, so maybe there was a smidgen of the ball touching the ground on the chalk. :-) Bob |
A foul ball is a batted ball that settles on foul territory.
Foul territory is that part of the playing field outside not on.... The ball's curvature may have been in the perpendicular plane, but the ball was settled off the line, on foul territory. mick |
[QUOTE]Gee: The major league umpire is trying to determine if the ball is TOUCHING the foul line.
--- I thought he was trying to determine if the ball was on or over the foul line. ------ Give me a break. You're 70 years old and from home plate you could not tell if the rightside quadrant of a batted ball broke the plane of the leftside quadrant of the foul line at the bag. You couldn't do it if you were 18. Ted Williams (20/10) couldn't do it in his prime. --------- Who is talking about passing over the bag? We are talking about a still ball very close to the foul line and trying to determine if the ball is on or over fair territory. As was stated in the original thread, it is. Simple, fair ball. ---------- It's ridiculous to discuss it further, and I bow out now.<p>BTW: How do you stand on a batted ball that passes through the plane of the foul pole (but doesn't touch it) and over the fence? Home run, Gee? ----------- If I understand you correctly and I think I do. I've got a home run. G. |
My two cents
1. Imagine the ball in the exact same position relative to the line, only about five feet in the air, and F5 knocks it down. What are you going to call it?
FOUL BALL!!! Foul ball in the air, foul ball on the ground. 2. What do you ususally call a close fair/foul when you honestly aren't sure? Me? I gotta "see" a fair ball. |
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P-Sz |
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Consider: (1) If you don't see a tag, the runner is .... (2) If you don't see the batter swing, it is a .... Thus, if you don't SEE the ball fair, it is .... (Of course, the opposite would be true, but that is not in keeping with the clear tradition of calling instances 1 and 2 above.) There's a philosophical point embedded in the nature of baseball: Pointing a ball "fair" is a decision that instantly affects the progress of the game. Calling that ball "foul" merely postpones the moment of truth. So, if you are guessing about fair/foul, your best chance of NOT affecting the outcome is to signal "foul." |
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Perhaps what P-Sz was implying, and I am in agreement with regard to the fair/foul ball, a batted ball is live until it is dead. ;-) mick |
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WHY???............because "if I am wrong"......... If I call call it fair, and "if I am wrong", then I have just taken the ball out of the pitcher's hands. There is nothing else he can do to offset my error of being wrong. If I call it foul, and "if I am wrong", then I may have taken a hit away from a batter, but he is still at the plate with the bat in his hands. I did not take the bat out of his hands. There IS something he can do to offset my error. Hell, he may even hit a HR instead of the single. Bottom line, when IN DOUBT on a fair/foul call, I will always call foul. I do less damage if I am wrong. By having this philosophy going into the game, it makes my game more consistent on this type call, and I have learned to react in accordance with the philosophy. Certainly if I know it is fair, that is what I call---regardless of how close it was to being foul. Just my opinion, Freix |
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On those 'tweener batted balls down those unmarked outfield lines, I've got fair almost every time. If I have to guess, I guess to keep the game goin'. Yet, your rationale does makes sense to me. It's fortunate that neither you, nor I, have ever kicked one of those calls. ;) mick |
Message Deleted, please see new thread '"Benefit of the doubt" - when is it applicable?'
P-Sz [Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Jul 26th, 2001 at 12:46 PM] |
Papa C ...
I stumbled on to an article about fair/foul the other day while looking for some online umpire reading. I asked the author of the article/quiz about the question we are posing here. He said fair and cited this rational,
"The actual ground coverd by the width of the foul line is all fair. So if any part of the ball is over the actual line, the part of the the ball is over fair territory - making it a fair ball. Ratioanle: Suppose the ball where to continue to roll in this position over the line directly along the line with 1/3 of the ball foul and the rest over the line (fair). Eventually it would hit the bag and, by rule, it would be a fair ball! How could a ball having the exact same position with respect to the foul line, rolling up the line, be foul one momment and fair the next (upon touching the bag) when its position over the foul line never has changed?" This is from a fairly respected umpire, one who has your respect as well. I have seen you two disagree (friendly of course) from time to time though. Bob |
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