Civility
 

I have been on this board for about a month, and I have to say, at times, that I have been shocked. Considering where I have been and what I have done in life, that's an accomplishment.

It takes an ego to officiate sports. No other situation is possible; if you don't have the self-esteem to stand behind your own controversial call, you will quickly find another hobby or profession, as the case may be.

I understand the ego. Mine's about a size 12 1/2.

But what I don't understand is the seeming predisposition of some folks on this board to take any level of disagreement to an instant personal attack. I would characterize some of those personal attacks as just viscious. I have been sucked into some of these juvenile, ad hominem attacks myself. I have reread some of my posts and am downright ashamed of myself.

It may partly be a function of the AMLU strike and all the passions that has ignited, on both sides of the issue. But it certainly spreads to other areas of this board and non-strike related posts. I can tell you that I have often thought "Man, I'm glad I have never worked a game with this guy. He must dump someone everytime he steps on the field."

Here are my points, in no particular order:

1. One of the main functions of this board, I would assume, at least, is to be a forum for education and sharing of experiences amongst umpires. I think that function suffers in an atmosphere of routine personal attacks.

2. I don't know where everybody else works. Here in Arkansas fans, at least, believe that part of the price of admission to a baseball game is a license to verbally abuse the umpires. Sometimes coaches and players think that way, too. I take enough ignorant crap from non-umpires about umpiring. Why do some of us feel the near-pathological need to pile crap (ignorant or well-informed, it makes no difference, it still stinks) on each other?

3. Do we/would we say the things we write on this board to each other on the phone? In person? After a n*t-cutting ballgame?

4. We aren't the Isrealis and Palestenians. Most of us are umpires, and while baseball is important to all of us, it is not the end of the world, the War on Terror or the Darfur Crisis.

No, I am not Rodney King asking us to all get along. I am observing that the level of vitriol on this board is amazing, and I think it serves no real purpose other than venting steam. It appears to me to be self-destructive.

For that in which I have personally engaged, I apologize. I sincerely hope we all can step back and stop hammering each other quite so much.

Strikes and outs!

Nice post, counselor.

Actually, The Official Forum is pretty tame in comparison to what the first Internet umpiring forum became. The AMLU issue aside, the problem, as I see it, can be directly related to a few individuals who will not heed a voice of reason.

I don't know why these individuals cannot accept criticism when they make innaccurate statements. I suppose they've grown so accustomed to being the man in charge on the field that they feel they're above accountibilty here as well. It takes a man to admitt they can be wrong at times. Instead of being a man about it, there a few individuals that have grown accustomed to throwing child like tantrums when challenged.

It really is a shame we have to continue to endure the few that do this.


Tim.

Good post!
 

Agree 100%!!!

I think most of us would rather talk baseball anyway!!!

I've looked at pretty much all the threads on this forum for over 9 months. In that time I've yet to see a member using the moniker Ole' Poot. Could you explain who it is you're reffering to as an Old pu$$y?


Tim.

And the civility thread begins its descent into the murky morass...................



Doug

I believe he was vaguely referring to you, PW. I also asked you very nicely not to keep calling me Poot.

BTW, this does not upset me, so I'm not on any verge of any nervous breakdown. You are actually quite funny, in a pathetic sort of way.

BlueLawyer,

I agree with just about everything you say. The problem is there are people that come here to pump up their abilities rather than add to the discussion. There are people here that do not understand that we all come from different backgrounds, ability levels, goals in officiating and just plain have a difference of opinion on issues which makes us neither right nor wrong on many issues. There has always been fighting on the internet and there always will be. That is what happens when people have funny names, do not have to stand by what they say by either us looking them in the eye or putting their name on their words. If you do stick around for longer than a month you will find this out. Right now the hot topic is the AMLU-Minor League issue. Before the season people were disputing the issue of a rising fastball. People say things online they would never say to a person when they are faced with that very person. This is just a nature of the beast. I have gone to other websites like this and officiating was not the topic and the very same type of personal attacks, disagreements and hyperbole takes place there as well. It will never fully change.

The main advice I can give to you is to read with caution, pick your battles and understand that not everyone is coming at this site with the same perspective. I have seen your post on every one of the sports boards on this site before. No matter what those criticisms still take place often and usually there disputes are carry-over discussions from past discussions.

Peace

Tim, DIV2, JRut
 

Thanks for the kind words. All valid points.

I have someone in my association (my assignor and the rules interpreter, as it happens) with whom I regularly butt heads on umpiring issues and association business (I'm on the exec board- he's a former President). It usually works like this: he says something or posts something I disagree with. I argue against him with varying degrees of passion, depending on the issue and how wrong I believe him to be. We argue, sometimes he wins, and then we go have a beer and make up. The loser of the argument buys the first round. He is slowly getting an education in courtroom technique.

The relationship works, I think, because of mutual professional respect, necessity (we have to work together both on the field and off) and beer.

There are very few umpires I have met in person who I don't like, including the two or three MLB guys. Maybe the general lack of personal contact is what we lack, although I would still think we share a whole lot more in common than any thing that divides us.

By the way, my name is Zega. Only my mother and the judges I work with call me "Steve".

Strikes and outs!

Funny you said this. I have in the past several years been on a board official’s association in multiple associations in each of the sports I officiate. The people I have dealt with are some of the biggest egos in officiating where I live. Almost every board has an assignor, state final official, college official, state clinician or one of the better officials and officials that are on the verge of working a state final or breaking the D1 level. All these egos bump heads from time to time. Even in the most intensive debates or discussions, usually the discussions maintain a professional tone and we all go out have drinks after the meeting. You will not be on many of the boards if someone does not respect you as an official. So even when things get contentious in our meetings, we all know that in that room everyone has given back a lot to the organization. Online that is very hard to translate and many of us have no idea what the other has done. There is not the same mutual respect. It is also very easy to claim you have done something and none of us will ever be able to verify in the first place. This is why one of the primary reasons I come here is to talk about something I love and to pass time and to find entertainment in the conversation. It is fun to talk officiating even when there is some conflict. I also do not come here with the expectation that I am going to hear something or discuss an issue that will be new to me or that I cannot discuss off this board. This can be a great resource at times but ultimately what I learn from is the veterans I work with and the camps I attend.

Peace

This is only natural. To be an umpire, you have to be authoratative. Bunch of "Type As". Never get along all at once. Shouldn't be that way, not an excuse to some posters, but I'm afraid its just a fact.

Jeff:

I have to say that I was impressed by your last post. It was probably the most concise and meaningful post I've seen you write. You're absolutely right, in that it's very much about simple respect. I don't care if they like it or not, but there has to be a certain amount of accountibility when information is imparted incorrectly by certain individuals. What sets the more prominent members of this board apart from a very select narrow minded individuals is their ability to accept a measure of accountibilty for the information they impart. I respect, and think most of us resect, a man who is willing to say he make a mistake. We have a few that I believe argue for the sake of arguing. These individuals could care less whether or not we respect them, and in turn afford no one else any respect.


Tim.

Okay, now I am asking you nicely for the 3rd time. Please stop calling me Poot. It is very childish.

This thread is supposed to be about civility, yet here you are again acting like a child, PWL. Why don't you step back a moment, collect yourself and try to act like a man instead of a three year old. Do you not realize how much of a laughing stock you are to the members of this board? Please stop the name calling and grow up. I would like to get back to discussing officiating this game. There have been several thread put up today where you could have contributed something of value, but here you are disrupting the forum once again.



Tim.

If you have ever attended a professional school or clinic, you quickly learn that we don't sing "We are Family." There is barking and direct confrontation. Respect is earned and quickly lost - umpires should know two things: 1) You are only as good as your last call and 2) you should learn to grow thick skin.

This board treats issues fairly well. Some umpires have a problem staying on topic and dance when they offer an opinion that is proven false. The beauty of the internet is that one can remain anonymous, if one so chooses. Some umpires are not compelled to use a legal name, as it is of no import. They realize that they are not doing this for ego or personal gain. If you, as an umpire, stroll the field with the air of the elite, then I can understand why it is important to see legal names posted here. I suggest that you have your name stitched onto the back of your shirt or jacket too.

Civility is a double edged sword. If I agree with Tom then Dick may think I'm slighting him for disagreeing with his view. I'll never understand why umpires are afraid to state their opinions and live with the consequences. When you make a call on the field, you'd better be prepared for a challenge.

I've been called just about every name in the book - on the field and off. They are simple words and cause me little concern. I am well versed with the English language and usually can parry with the best of them. I have never written anything here that I wouldn't say to another's face. Often, the case is that the other member's ability to argue effectively is running on empty. Communication is a primary skill of umpiring. Learn how to listen and reply.

The biggest shortfall of this and any other internet discussion board is the inability of some to read. The message is lost when preconceived notions creep in. Like judging a play before it happens, it looks horrible and usually results in the umpire getting reprimanded.

This board is what it is...an opportunity to present an opinion. Umpires do this daily and deal with the ramifications. Nothing is worse than seeing how the other boards handle rule interps:
Ump1- ...so rule 14-3-8 states that it should always be called this way.
Ump2- I agree.
Ump3- Good call, blue.
Ump4- I once had this happen and I used 14-3-8 to make the call.
Ump5- Ump1 nailed it...how are you blue?
Ump6- Thanks for the nice words Ump5, it was easy.
Ump7- The first umpire got this right. Don't look any further.
Ump8- Ump2 onced posted this play. Ump1 is dead on.
Ump9- Hey, everybody, 14-3-8 is the answer.
Ump10- Thanks Ump9, welcome to the board.

Blah, blah, blah, kiss, kiss, kiss, yada, yada, yada...

A little confrontation does an ump's soul good. Hijacking posts is the tactic of those who need glory instead of anonymity. My arm is plenty long enough to pat myself on the back, I don't require adoration or kudos. I don't get them on the field and use a nom de net to remind myself that being an umpire is just a function of the game. If you believe the praise then you better be able to accept the boos.

SDS,

Just let it go man. PWL raggin' on you is the same as schoolyard teasing. The only reason the kids keep doing it is because that particular person gets mad. If he/she just walked away it would get boring and the teasing, namecalling, etc. would stop. Besides, what is Poot anyway....it's just a word. Besides, you're a fellow South Sider right?

Sticks and stones dude.

I also hear a lot of this "admit a mistake" stuff from you and others. How are you going to make a mistake on an opinion? I think opinions are the essence of this place. Even when we talk about many rules there are interpretations that are given and vary by whom you work for and where you live. I know just where I live and what part of the state you are in there are many philosophies that vary. Tip O'Neill used to say, "Politics is local." Officiating is the same way. And when we talk about things often it is not going to resonate with everyone when we all have very different experiences. Having met and worked with officials from many surrounding states, it is very common that we all do not share the same attitudes and expectations in our officiating. I remember conversations here about keeping players in the batter's box brought many points of views and experiences and all were not the same.

Peace

Doc Must Be Turning Blue
 

Thank YOU BLUEUMP, your post was a breath of fresh air. Nice try.

A finer kettle has never been posted on this website.

I think I just read the Hippocratic Oath.

I do not claim to know the term's origin; I do know a comedian that uses the term quite often. I am thinking that is where the usage here came from.

Peace

I also hear a lot of this "admit a mistake" stuff from you and others. How are you going to make a mistake on an opinion? I think opinions are the essence of this place.

Opinions are absolutely the essence of this place, well put. We don't require legal names to have one and only ask that the response be well thought and written, thus avoiding confusion.

However, opinions can be erroneous. If I opine that you are a transgender Martian who has never read a rule book, would I be mistaken? If my opinion that a pitcher doesn't have to engage the rubber to deliver a pitch am I correct? Opinions are the lifeblood of discussion boards and many are incorrect. We see time and again newbie umpires think that the hands are part of the bat. That is their opinion and they would be wrong. Some may think that amateur umpires are independent contractors while others will point out that this is a regional definition. What BU56 was getting at was that when you blunder, you have the intestinal fortitude to admit it. Sometimes it is a bitter pill to swallow, but if you want to be strong and act like a man, you may be forced to eat your written words.

I hate to admit it, but there was a point in my early career that seemed like I would never get the hang of our passion. I would assume calls, engage my mouth but contradict it with my physical call and argue with coaches. I realized that growing some thick skin, manipulating the system and slowing down were all part of the success equation. Sure, I blow calls every now and then - I've even been known to admit them to the right skipper. Over a beer or Jack Daniels, I've told stories of making the wrong call at the wrong time. Being able to realize your mistakes and capitalize on that awareness makes good umpires great.

Middle of the Line-UP NOT accounted for.
 

The regular INMATES have already accounted for SIX premium spots in my batting lineUP. Asking for anyone with playing experience. Who would you put in the other three spots on this very LOUSY TEAM.

Leading off: JRUT, need someone like HIM at the top of the lineup.
Batting second: SAump, handles the SAC well
Batting third: PWL, doesn't have great power but a solid hitter
Cleanup: Windy, thinks he has all 5 tools

Battting fifth: Large OPENING within
Batting sixth: HELP wanted inside
Batting seventh: Aim to fill HIGHER vacancy

Batting eight SDS, sorely needed as the infield utility player
Batting ninth BIGump, Can't HIT worth a shOt, but he throws a mean riser.

In defense of incivility?
 

WWTB: here are my points. Again.

1. I can disagree with you without being disagreeable. I can disagree with your call without thinking you suck as an umpire or as a human being. I can disagree with your internet post, and say so, without engaging in character assassination. I can disagree with you without calling you names, questioning your ancestary or in general telling you that you are the biggest idiot ever to don a mask.

2. We (officials) are all in this together, to some degree, greater or lesser. My fellow blues are my competition, true. But before that they are my colleagues and my teammates. If they succeed, to some extent, I succeed. If this wasn't true, I'd throw my partner under the bus every time he booted a call and say something to the effect of "You're right, coach. He really does suck. I can't believe he's working this level of ball either."

If you don't think this is family, I have genuine sorrow for you.

Criticism is indeed the path to better officiating, and therefore, ultimately, better competition. Criticism should be constructive to acheive its intended goal, however. "Zega, you should have been deeper at C to see the play better. Here's where you need to be," works much better than, "Zega, you suck. That's something I would expect from a University of Arkansas grad. Quit umpiring now and save us all the embarassment of you being on the field. I hope you law better than you ump, or you're going to starve."

"I'm in it for me. Only me. Period." That attitude will lead to an awfully lonely and unfulfilling career. IMHO.

Strikes and outs!

This is exactly the kind of nonsense I was talking about, SA. You have shown on numerous occasions that you know very little about this game except how to formulate unsubstantiated opinions that are near worthless. You are a rookie at best and a long time Smitty at worst, yet you continue to engage the more knowledgeable posters on this board in matters of which you have no understanding. Take the carelessly thrown bat issue for example. How many other officials told you that you were off base in your line of thinking? Way too many for you to keep arguing, yet on and on you went. At some point, a reasonable man would have thought to himself that he may need to re-think his position. However, as you're not a reasonable man, you no doubt cannot grasp this concept. As I have it right now, you're batting a big o-fer' on this forum.


Tim.

concerning SA ....................
 

It is best to ignore those who choose to deal in specious nonsense.

They are like mimes, better not seen AND not heard !



Doug

The problem here is that we have a few individuals that will not accept any form of criticism, however constructive, without responding with personal attacks. We have an individual here who tried to explain to us why he felt it was appropriate to throw his partner under the bus on a non balk call. He rambled on and on about how bad his partner kicked it by not calling an obvious balk. When we pointed out to him that all balk calls are a shared responsibility he responded with all sorts of insults. As the thread went on we all found out that the real fact was he had nary a clue as to how to call a balk himself. Still, he persisted in whining like a school girl that we were picking on him instead of sucking it up and learning from other more experienced officials. I could go into detail about how this child believes in make up calls and had little insight into the nuances of the rules, but by now I hope you get the point. There has not been one single individual who has pointed out his errors that wasn't atacked personally.


Tim.

Blue,

You are dealing with a person that claims to live in my area, talks about people by name while hiding his name, says things to people here he has never said to their face (talking about people in our area) and has flat out lied on people by making claims he cannot back up. Then he claims he knows more than everyone here while dropping his resume but no one here fits that kind of background. At least no one fits that background currently.

I would think someone with so much knowledge and the respect he claims to have in our area would want do lift up umpiring instead of tearing it down. This is why I pretty much ignore him.

Peace

What post's would those be? The ones where he has tried to tell you that you were incorrect? You've insulted him not only as an umpire, but as a man as well. You've made ridiculously rude comments about his job, his wife, and even his health. You've done all of this because you cannot accept the fact you know little about umpiring. Maybe you impress the JV umpires in your association with smoke and mirrors, but here you fool no one.


Tim.

Local Hypocrite Rules
 

There you go pointing your big finger again, or should I say TAIL END Queen Bee. Your PARTY crosses the lines of civility and hound others for retaliation and insult. NOW you think you own the rulebook on civility and your little group of under-PRIVILEGE kids get to run this show. You have shown and some of the other umps on that same post how little you have to add to the discussion. That is a shining example of delete/edit thread opportunity as you can find on this board at the present time.

Why don't you swallow your own words and take it like a man and admit that you refused to call that thrown bat INTERFERENCE rule by the book? Then again why don't you post your FED 3-3-1 rule and explain how it must be interpreted in an OBR ballgame. Please explain how those LL sources I quoted to back up my "PERCEPTION" were wrong. "Who are they," you ask. You just don't get it. I showed you the bathroom door and its time you enter, close it, and do your business.

You insist on doing this in public, very civil.

BlueLawyer,

Good post to start this thread. I started posting on this forum a little over a year ago, and had "lurked" for about a year prior to that. From my perspective, I can assure you that the AMLU strike is not the source of what you find distasteful in this forum. It was going on, to greater and lesser degress, well before then.

When I do post on this forum, I do my best to be civil. I am not above making the occasional sarcastic remark, but I don't go looking to pick fights with people. Out of respect for the members of this forum, I take some care with what I write so that it is coherent, I do my best not to publish misinformation, and I try to refrain from posting when I have nothing to say that will contribute to the conversation.

The internet is a wonderful and terrible thing. I know I have learned a lot from both reading and posting on this forum. One of the things that make it both wonderful and terrible is that pretty much anybody can say anything he wants on the internet, without any of the repercussions that might occur in a face-to-face or even "non-anonymous" conversation. On a few occasions over the last year (three, if I remember correctly), I have gotten into "tiffs" with other members of this forum. In each case, I had my say, they had their's, and it was over. I am sure this is true from my perspective, and I believe it is from their's. But some things I can't control. I continue to have conversations with these people, and occasionally "argue" (but I hope in a good way), because I respect their knowledge, experience, and willingness to share both.

There are other people on this board whose existence I do my best to not acknowledge publicly in ANY WAY. I have never addressed a post to any of them, I have never responded to a post they have made, I have never directly referenced or quoted the content of one of their posts (except exactly once), and I have not even mentioned their names, except on the rarest of occasions.

They are TROLLS (one of the "terrible" things about the internet). In my opinion, the current TROLL population of this board is three. In my experience, the only way to deal with trolls is to completely ignore them. This is not always easy to do. But until everyone does, they will continue to pollute this forum with their juvenile drivel.

In my experience, umpires can be a cranky lot - not by nature, but rather because of the nature of what they do. They are charged with the burden of being paragons of calm and rationality, even when lunatic coaches engage in insanely disrespectful behavior towards them because they didn't like the call the umpire just made - which, most likely, was the correct call. Sometimes it is very embarrassing to be a coach.

So, if some of them feel the need to come here occasionally and "blow off a little steam", I really don't begrudge them. I wish they wouldn't, but I have neither the right nor the authority to tell them they shouldn't, and I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying.

Apparently unlike some members of this forum, I have never had any luck with teaching a pig to sing. Maybe it's me, but it could just be the pig.

Again, nice post. Welcome to the forum.

JM

Don't listen to SA!

Coaching Opinionators
 

"They are TROLLS (one of the "terrible" things about the internet). In my opinion, the current TROLL population of this board is three. In my experience, the only way to deal with trolls is to completely ignore them. This is not always easy to do. But until everyone does, they will continue to pollute this forum with their juvenile drivel."

I learn something new every day.

Timmie C only mentioned two before he retired.

Who is this newest member of the trolling community?

Please ID the person who calls you RAT most often.

Impressive
 

This guy has RISEN to stalker.:eek:

Should I consider myself a celebrity?:confused:

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? What a maroon! HAR DE HAR HAR!!

Besides, I can only stalk one person at a time and if you ask him WWTB will tell you it's him.

I'm not certain why you found the urge to reiterate your points, I read and understood them. I used to end some of my posts with a Carl tribute - A2D (agree to disagree). The problem with that is that umpires are an opinionated lot. We don't like to have our judgement questioned - evidenced by countless "Do I go for help on this call?" threads. I addressed the name calling issue - when you get too stressed or run out of communication skills, out pop the dick/mom/heritage jokes. However, sarcasm is a highly sought skill in our world. If you can't handle a wry jab, then you should never don a mask.

Umpires are not a family any more than any other occupation. (Lawyers are the class example - sure we are in this together, but I'll cut your throat and sell my grandmother to make partner/win this case/get elected judge/etc.)We have commonalities and understand the nuances and intricacies of a well called game. However, it is very much an every man for himself world out there. Even amongst NCAA crews, it is fairly cut throat. You want to excel and get noticed while helping your crew mates. Come playoff time across the country, the jealousies emerge. Ego is an intrinsic part of umpiring and the best know they are good. Am I a bad partner for giving a brutally honest post game to a weak crew mate?

I undersatnd that you think we should all live in a pablum internet world. "I disagree with your ruling, but you're a swell guy." That is not the way life is at any endeavor. On a discussion board, you state your opinion and then await the verdict. Just like on the field, confrontation is part of the game. The board owner and mods recognize this and allow a certain amount to pervade the site.

Finally, like those who wanted to ban the Da Vinci Code, why are you afraid of words? The old adage of sticks and stones comes to mind. Maybe we don't see I to eye and can dialogue in a politically correct manner. However, if I am as adamnat in my belief as you are, expect some discourse. If your sarcasm offends me, then maybe I respond in kind. Remember, they are just words.

The song keeps skipping...we keep hearing the same refrain repeatedly. "I don't know who he is, so he can't be real. Others know his identity and believe his words but I can't because he made me look like a fool too many times. He can't be real. He can't be real. He can't be real. He can't be real..."

I do and have done more for umpiring in Illinois than you'll ever know. Plenty of people know me (in fact, an AMLU supporter was exceptionally talented at detective work) Yes, you keep ignoring me...(snicker, chuckle, guffaw)

The witching hour is nigh...sweet dreams, SBM.

You never quoted a Little League source. You pulled some hair brain opinion off of the Internet from someone none of us had ever heard of before. What on Earth would lead you to believe that his opinion had more merit than the umpire training manual for all Little League umpires. In case you missed it the first time, here are the instructors comments found in the Rules Instruction Manual.


Seldom will an umpire have to utilize this rule. Most situations can be covered by rules and interpretations listed throughout the book. Umpires should not use Rule 9.01(c) as a substitute for knowledge of the rules or to further their individual agendas utilizing the word “safety”.

Situations such as throwing the bat and other potentially unsafe actions should be covered as follows: Warn the player and warn the other members of this player’s team. Further incidences will result in ejection.



Tim.

Sarcasm is a highly sought skill? I disagree. Most folks value a sense of humor, and sarcasm has a place in humor. When abused or overused, just like anything else, it becomes tedious, isolating and ultimately, ineffective.

I disagree. What you see on David E. Kelley TV shows is not what being a lawyer is about. I don't act that way in the courtroom. If I told a judge to go f*ck himself (as I have seen on tv) the very best thing that would happen to me is I would be a couple grand lighter in the wallet and I would spend a couple of weeks in jail. I might get away with it two times; there would not be a third. There are jackasses in my profession, to be sure, and maybe more of them per capita (good Latin, eh?) than in other professions. My frame of reference on this is limited; I have been a lawyer, soldier, politician, sports official and a blue-collar factory guy in my life. By far the biggest number of self-important blowhards per capita is in the political field. But to the point about umpires:

I am interested to know where to draw the line in the name of "Me, Myself and I." If your partner boots a call, you know it and the aggreived Coach comes out and chews his a$$, do you leave your partner twisting in the wind? At the postgame do you say, "Man, you sucked on that one. But you made me look good. Thanks."? Do you pirate assignments? Do you run down your colleagues to coaches, other umpires, ADs and assignors? Maybe that attitude and execution works where you are from. Around here, it is a recipe for limited assignments.

It depends. I have bad games, even after years of experience. I expect my partner to tell me so. What I don't expect is for him to disrespect me and preen his feathers. I have sometimes felt like I have had to carry my partner when he is having a bad game. But you know what? I look bad, too. We look bad. It is no fun to work baseball when you as a crew are not having a good game.

You understand nothing about the way I think, because again, you didn't ask. And I am not stating that you should tell me I'm a swell guy. I am stating that telling me I'm an idiot is unnecessary. And is "confrontation is part of the game"? Really? It can be, but that is no reason to be confrontational. My experience tells me that if I go into a game looking for a fight, I'll find one. And this board is not a game. As much as some would like to, we can't ultimately eject anybody.

I am not afraid of words, WWTB. I am sometimes disgusted by them, much in the same way that I am not afraid of roadkill, but I find it unpleasant and disgusting. With all due respect, WWTB, what you and I have (and what I see with your "dialogue" with other members of this board) is not "discourse". It's you spoiling for a fight, looking for confrontation, asserting your superiority in every aspect of umpiring and turning every argument personal. That's not discourse; it's diatribe.

Strikes and outs!

"I am not afraid of words, WWTB. I am sometimes disgusted by them, much in the same way that I am not afraid of roadkill, but I find it unpleasant and disgusting. With all due respect, WWTB, what you and I have (and what I see with your "dialogue" with other members of this board) is not "discourse". It's you spoiling for a fight, looking for confrontation, asserting your superiority in every aspect of umpiring and turning every argument personal. That's not discourse; it's diatribe."

BL you hit the nail on the head. Gotta go, I think SAump is posting. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

If that is the case, no one seems to care anymore. I know a couple of people that recieve a lot of credit for their time and effort and giving back, for some reason there is no one I know fits your profile or "claimed" background or experience. Robby is not around anymore and it is clear that the people in charge have left his way of thinking behind. ;)

I guess if I am white and male I can constantly make comments about race. Since I am Black I have to not make any references to who I am. This is very typical of a person of your background. ;) Just another example of something you would never say to my face.

Peace

Perhaps
 

My MO is well known.
I'm just learning about yours.
My guess is you are an ole hand in the business.
You really are desparate to believe this sad attemt in SAvility.
You're stalking me like a POST whore who RAN OFF her best customer.
If you feel you have driven W-WWTB away from the site, I guess you can focus all your energy on SAtire for the time being, anyway.

Start your own thread and invite me in.
Or continue to follow me around like a lost pup.
I'll show UP just to keep you from HI-jacking every other post I make.
If you want a list, go back and bring up some of my past conversations.
I'll enjoy the RETURN trip.

You've illustrated my point yet again. I've twisted nothing when responding to your posts. You simply don't care to have someone else dare to question you. There have been times to numerous to mention that you've given out erroneous information. It doesn't matter if it's me or someone else, if anyone dares to disagree with you when you do this, your name calling tantrums begin.


Lets's recap shall we. Without going back and actually pulling up all the threads where you've done this, I can recall off-hand quite a few you've done this to.

*Carl Childress

*Tim Christensen

*Steve Meyers

*Rich Fronheiser

*Garth Benham

*Alan Roper

*Myself


All of the aforementioned have had encounters with your nasty little rants. Some have gone so far as to mention to Brad that should you be allowed to continue to post here, they would refrain from participating. Why Brad has allowed you all the warnings he has is beyond me. This forum would be better served if you would either leave, or start to act like an adult.



Tim.

It's a small world, after all . . .
 

Tim:

I'm working with Alan Roper on Thursday.

He's a good guy and a good blue.

Strikes and outs!

Is it just me?
 

No, not JustMe who posts on this board.

Is it just me or have I opened the biggest name-calling thread on this board? All because I wanted to comment on the unnecessary name calling?

Wow. I wonder what would happen if some of us actually did have to work a game together.

Scary thought.

Strikes and outs!

CLOSE the Door
 

You SIR are taking a BIG-dUMP on senility with the door left WIDE OPEN and I would certainly appreciate it if you CLOSE the DOOR because it stinks. You took a POT SHOT at two people who you have never met within the last 72 HOURS. What have they done to YOU to deserve this lambasting.

YOU play the intelligent FOOL quite well. Little tee deleted a post where you come out looking like a jackass. You adopt his tactics by deleting your omissions quite frequently. Your buddies also include pot shots a time or two. I still respect them more than they can know. I see you included yourself at the bottom of the upper-crust.

What have I got to show for standing UP for myself? I was DUMBFOUNDED at the people who first responded to this post. It was like the who's who of OPEN Mouth Disease. Did you take a hard look at #2 lately? My only regret was not including NFump in the line-UP.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, have you reached a verdict?
 

We have, Your Honor!

Mmmmmm, lambasting......making me hungry for lamb again!

Yeah, sometimes when people misspeak, they choose to delete their faux pas instead of leaving their mistakes on the board, which describes most of your posts (mistakes left on the board).

You were not dumbfounded, you were found dumb!:)

Guilty!;)

What's it like to get a taste of your own medicine there SA? Oh, by the way, I can't hi-jack your posts. I merely offer a counter point of view. T'would appear that you can't handle it as you have now resorted to name calling.

From Blue Lawyer:
Sarcasm is a highly sought skill? I disagree. Most folks value a sense of humor, and sarcasm has a place in humor. When abused or overused, just like anything else, it becomes tedious, isolating and ultimately, ineffective.

I don't use sarcasm anymore than is required. You have recently joined us and missed many posts that did not involve the AMLU. My hot buttons are get the call right, malicious contact, expected call and balks. I have written thousands of words of support, clarification and assistance. I still teach clinics and pride myself on preparing newbies for the real world. In those clinics, we use confrontation and sarcasm - JUST LIKE ON THE BALL FIELD. They are effective tools and skills, depsite your view to the contrary. Sarcasm is not part and parcel of a sense of humor-it may be a defense mechanism or malicious.

What you see on David E. Kelley TV shows is not what being a lawyer is about. (edit for brevity) There are jackasses in my profession, to be sure, and maybe more of them per capita (good Latin, eh?) than in other professions. My frame of reference on this is limited; I have been a lawyer, soldier, politician, sports official and a blue-collar factory guy in my life. By far the biggest number of self-important blowhards per capita is in the political field.

Again, you should have read my message about A2D. You are justifying your position yet again. I never compared your career to a television show. Stick around long enough and you'll find that amateur umpires have vast differences in the way we treat the job. Name any rule, mechanic or uniform code and you'll find that not everyone is in the same boat. We've debated the acceptability of white shirts, enforce the batters box rule, be considered independent contractors, accept MiLB assignments, work as a volunteer etc. Each of us is in this for our own reasons. If you need any more evidence of this, read the strike threads again-they go back eight months. Again, A2D, but don't try to sell me on the need to sing Kumbayah. I was in a fraternity long ago and I truly bonded with those guys. But, we'd go to conventions and find brothers from other chapters that I wouldn't have spit on if they were on fire. Their idea of brotherhood was get drunk, get a brand and humiliate. Sure, they were 'family' - the same way chimpanzees are related to homo sapiens.

I am interested to know where to draw the line in the name of "Me, Myself and I." If your partner boots a call, you know it and the aggreived Coach comes out and chews his a$$, do you leave your partner twisting in the wind? At the postgame do you say, "Man, you sucked on that one. But you made me look good. Thanks."? Do you pirate assignments? Do you run down your colleagues to coaches, other umpires, ADs and assignors? Maybe that attitude and execution works where you are from. Around here, it is a recipe for limited assignments.

That's fair...you clearly didn't read the post that explained how we are supposed to excel while supporting our crew mates...but you deserve an answer to the query. I have no compunction about giving a brutal post game eval to one of my partners, I accept and expect the same. I have been involved with situations that had me leave a partner to fend for himself. (Pre-game he told me he does not allow check swing appeals. Okay, enjoy that red ***.) I've had partners who told me that they won't come to me (PU) on a swipe tag at first even when straightlined. That's good to know - I'll get some popcorn and be sure to ask that you are removed from future assignments. If the assignor values my opinion enough to ask, I will do a disservice to carry an official that isn't ready for a big game. I worked at a very high level and teach countless clinics. If you don't know how I feel about you then we haven't worked together. Read more and you'll find that my feelings about knowing your role and that the game is bigger than any umpire are long held. Conversely, if you are an excellent umpire and worthy of support, I have been known to call assignors and heap praise your way. I have handed back assignments to ensure that younger umpires get the chance to experience really big games. After a game, if you made me proud - I've got the first couple rounds. Like I wrote, if we've worked together, you'll know what I think of you. You're only as good as your last call and knowing that will make you better.

It depends. I have bad games, even after years of experience. I expect my partner to tell me so. What I don't expect is for him to disrespect me and preen his feathers. I have sometimes felt like I have had to carry my partner when he is having a bad game. But you know what? I look bad, too. We look bad. It is no fun to work baseball when you as a crew are not having a good game.

There is a fine line between being able to accept criticism and give it; that line also exists with praise. I don't mind a guy preening when he deserves it. We've had threads that asked us to describe our worst call/game. I've participated and humbled myself at the altar of the OF. You keep making judgements based on very limited observation.

You understand nothing about the way I think, because again, you didn't ask. And I am not stating that you should tell me I'm a swell guy. I am stating that telling me I'm an idiot is unnecessary. And is "confrontation is part of the game"? Really? It can be, but that is no reason to be confrontational. My experience tells me that if I go into a game looking for a fight, I'll find one. And this board is not a game. As much as some would like to, we can't ultimately eject anybody.

That comment wasn't meant to be taken personally. I didn't find it necessary to paranthetically write (royal 'you') but apparently I should have; relax. Confrontation is certainly part of the game. Every call makes half of those present angry. Few umpires go into a game looking for a battle - most of us are keenly aware that we will be a target out there. Every umpire school and clinic I have ever attended taught confrontation awareness. I've never called a perfect game and that is why I keep coming back. I'm going to blow some calls and take the pipe for it. Some of it is gamesmanship while other times personal. Being a veteran of more years than I want to admit, I've learned the difference.

I am not afraid of words, WWTB. I am sometimes disgusted by them, much in the same way that I am not afraid of roadkill, but I find it unpleasant and disgusting. With all due respect, WWTB, what you and I have (and what I see with your "dialogue" with other members of this board) is not "discourse". It's you spoiling for a fight, looking for confrontation, asserting your superiority in every aspect of umpiring and turning every argument personal. That's not discourse; it's diatribe.

It's funny, you can write a disagreeable tome and it is not meant to be a diatribe, some would call that hypocritical. I am not spoiling for a fight any more than you are in need of a good smack down. What all discussion boards have are opinions. When you adamantly defend yours, I am entitled to adamantly punch holes in it, if I'm so inclined.

Have you spent much time before the bar? Opposing views are often passionate and heat of the moment comments tend to rock the boat. Of course my opinion is personal, that is classic redundancy. The very definition of discourse if the verbal exchange of ideas. I'm sorry to inform you that we may agree to disagree and still have a discourse. Is the word 'debate' more palatable?

Finally, if you truly don't believe that ego has a role in umpiring then I suspect we don't umpire the same level of ball. I have spent too much time and energy to not know what I am capable of or not. I was fortunate enough to have been asked to work a level of baseball that most amateurs only dream about. Hard work and knowing the right people made it happen. I earned the right to a feeling of accomplishment and if that offends you that is too bad. I embrace the newbie and am more than proud to help anyone who asks. I accept criticism of my officiating and often admit mistakes to my partners. I've offered contrition here and have bet on the wrong horse many times in life. However, until you've walked in my shoes and accomplished similar feats, you don't get to question my justification.

You implied that I treat others poorly. I am not afraid of those who build glass houses. I have tangled with the best and worst of them. Some recognize that it is not personal and are mature enough to move on. Others are probably just as hard headed as I am and I recognize that we won't share a fountain soda any time soon. That's okay with me...I'm not here to win the laurels of this board. Sometimes I embrace being the Devil's advocate. Whether you love me or hate me, I respect your right to enter a debate. I have only asked that you be prepared for challenge and able to retort effectively, as they are desirable umpire skills. If the topic becomes heated, recognize it for what it is...words on a blue and white screen. While they may disgust you, be mature enough to look away. If you don't want to see DaVinci Code or listen to Howard Stern, don't. But, tugging on Superman's cape invites confrontation.

A2D

Sweet Victory?
 

Quick, put a LOCK on it.

Consider the source.
 

Stay on topic: this one isn't about a rising fastball or a carelessly thrown bat. Will you be posting anything about civility, indulge in an opinion or stand on a limb?

My first post, acknowledged BL attempt to establish rule and order.
The post started off with BIgump, PWL, SDS, JRUT and Windy.
That gang was famous before YOU ever joined UP with them.
I don't go around the jail cell pretending to be a TRUSTEE.
I couldn't stand reading what the INMATES had written.
I know some of the history here but I ain't talking.
Can't wait to read what you got?

That's great. I have no doubt from all the things I've read Alan write that he's an excellent umpire and individual. I hope the two of you will give us a report back on how things went.


Tim.

The Last Word is Yours, WWTB
 

"You" as you used several times in your posts, in response to me, is personal. So don't try to tell me in one breath that "it wasn't meant to be personal" and then use the second-person pronoun. Viz, your sarcastic remark "Have you spent much time before the bar?"

13 years, WWTB. I am an accomplished trial and appellate attorney. What you call "argument" or "debate" I call ad hominem attacks. Sure, she's a prostitute and a crack addict. That must mean she is not a credible witness and that her eyes are bad. Objection, irrelevant. Sustained.

"Have you spent much time on the diamond?" If a coach asked you that question during an argument, I have a dollar bet it would get him dumped.

Are you a lawyer? You speak with such authority about my job to the point where you condescend to me about that, just like you do to me and eveybody else on this board about umpiring. Before you tell me I misread/didn't read your post (which seems to be a common tactic whenever you get caught in a fallacy), go back to your post on this board about how lawyers routinely screw each other to win the case/get the fee/become a judge. Then tell me "That wasn't meant to be personal. You just know I meant in general. You know. Like everybody in your profession is a backstabbing, soulless bloodsucker. Nothing personal."

And when you tell me you aren't a lawyer, but COME ON, everybody knows that they are sleazy backstabbers, I will tell you that is intellectually lazy at best. It's just like saying COME ON, everybody knows all umpires are blind, on the take and have an IQ ceiling of 80.

Again, you win. Your articulate defense of treating others like the gum on the bottom of your shoe because, well, you're BETTER than they are has convinced me.

Forget the post and the thread, WWTB. Your world, G. I'm just livin' in it.

Strikes and outs!

You'll never learn
 

YEAH BOY! That post sure is on topic and very civil. Anyway.......ow...ooo....stop......you're hurting my feelings:mad:......I might not ever post here again. :rolleyes: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!;)

A post whore? :eek: Lost pup? :confused: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

See how civil I'm being.:rolleyes: I'm keeping my :cool: and giving you the :p (pppphhhhtttttttttppppp !)

I can tell you are a lawyer, you have a gift for twisting words. When you can't agrue effectively, you can call names and then say, "I'm taking the ball and going home. The field is yours." I didn't disparage your job, you did a fine job of it yourself.

You put words in my mouth and that is another sign of weakness. I never indiacted that I treat my partners like 'gum on a shoe'. My partners at the D1 level have been with me for years. We support and chastise each otjer when appropriate. If you feel the need to be coddled and to do the same for others, again it is apparent we don't work the same levels of ball. My reputation mean little when I blow a call. I've had coaches that I've known for years chew me out on the field and then go out for dinner a week later. I can handle sarcasm, confrontation and criticism in the name of the game. I don't think it is appropriate to blow smoke up an assignor's skirt when he asks me about a horrible umpire. If you think that is backdooring a fellow arbiter, then I know you were never in professional ball. The world is competitive and most of us realize it.

Apparently, you don't understand what A2D means. That isn't a surprise, you haven't been able to read what else was written. Every one of your points was addressed and it was done with sincerity and a little self deprecation. You keep harping about how I claim to be so talented. I can't recall stating that, but I am confident in my abilities. Am I as good as I once was? No, age and desire have taken their toll. But I can still do the job and take pride that I earned the check.

Twist some more words, write some more things that aren't true. Chase another windmill Don Quixote, you imagination has gotten the better of you. You are boring me and aren't much of a challenge. In fact, you are beginning to sound an awful lot like someone else who just doesn't get it. Like him, you live for tangental thinking and misdirection. It's too bad, I started to think you were better than that.

Are you a sayin' they ain't?:eek:http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_8_4.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_110.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_5.gifASSOCIATION MEETING

The Prosecution Rests
 

But WWTB did not disparage my profession, I did.

You're right, of course.

Strikes and outs!

Does this cover it?
 

A carelessly thrown bat in OBR merits warning and an ejection.
My indifference results from the manner UMPIRES have granted OC responsibility to take care of the issue.
Mr Ortiz of Red Sox Fame was suspended 5 games for a carelessly thrown bat.
He could not be called OUT again because he had already been ruled OUT.
The league took PRO-ACTIVE punishment aside from the rules set in place.
I am aware of no such opportunity at lower levels of play.
I suppose a proper analogy would be:
1) The fox in charge of the henhouse.
2) The robber incharge of the LOCK BOX.
3) ...
I do NOT like it and it is an OPINION.
It is a well informed POLITICAL opinion you choose to ignore.
It is a well informed opinion that points out a weakness in the current rules.
Instead, you and your lost pups pretend the rule is greater than the game.
I have been attacked for forming an opinion defending the integrity of the game.
As I speak online today (2006), some local baseball leagues will have modified their own rules.
In softball and T-ball, many local leagues have already modified these rules.
You ignore the advice of professionl ballplayers and attack their character.
You ignore the reality only to besmirch my character.
You do all this on a thread named CIVILITY.
The yokes on YOU to correct it.

Four thoughts for the price of one:

1) I didn't realize those were disparaging. Most people are fully aware of the competition that occirs in a courtroom and office. I guess you must be a one man show.

2) You certainly have a neat way of giving someone the last word. Lah me!

3) You still can't counter my points. Yet another classis example of "Sorry coach, I didn't see the play. Give me a couple years and I'll know what to do."

4) You post about your expectations (limited opinions) regarding civility on a discussion board; what's next - don't look up, wet paint-don't touch, why do some umpires never learn?

Yes, exactly. After a warning, the next offense by any team member results in an ejection.

What umpires? Not real ones! Real umpires don't let the coaches run anything but their mouths, and those not for long. A good umpire will warn the player, his coach, and his team, that the next offender will be ejected. Period. End of discussion!

You did not present this as an opinion, you presented it as a proper interpretation of the current rules, which it was not. Us "pups" know that the rule is the game, and without the rules, there would be no game. You have not been attacked for forming an opinion, you have been corrected for passing off your opinion as fact.

Seriously
 

"Cut your throat and sell my grandmother" are not disparaging?

I'm not often at a loss for words. I am now.

Strikes and outs!

When someone says that they are giving the other the last word, being at a loss for words shouldn't come as a surprise. But then again, you twisted mine, so stumbling over yours is probably not uncharacteristic.

I shouldn't have to explain this, but the world's view of attorneys is not positive. I believe you wrote that there are many jackasses in the field. I alluded to the cut throat/sell your grandmother/bribe the bench to get the verdict as an example of competition in the workplace. You refuse to believe that competition exists within the umpiring brotherhood. That's a shame because outside of a Buddhist monastery, it exists everywhere counselor.

You began this thread by pondering why we can't all get along. Maybe you should read that initial post again. Then you can read the one I wrote that said it is okay to disagree, words don't hurt and if you can't retort effectively, you will be a weak umpire. Maybe my rebuttals will help you take the next step and improve your communication skills. Somehow, I think not.

So it was a metaphor
 

I get it now. I see that in discussing how there is competition in the umpiring community AND in the courtroom, two lessons I did not need, you chose, of all the metaphors in the world, to say, "cut your throat and sell my grandmother." And you chose, as the group upon which to express that metaphor, the group I belong to in my "real" job, attorneys. I'm inclined to believe that wasn't an accident.

Quoting you is not twisting your words. Quoting you is posting your words. I have to confess some amazement at your faux applause at my "lawyerly" skill of twisting words, something I am not doing, while all the while telling me I must be no good as a lawyer. What I am doing is akin to having the reporter read back your testimony.

When the talking point stops working, switch it up. Turn it upside down. That's the oldest propaganda technique in the book, predating Machiavelli. I have never insulted lawyers on this board, and you are insulting me by saying so. How dare you? We have never been at war with Oceania . .

I get that the world doesn't love lawyers as a group. In general, the world doesn't like used car salesmen, journalists or politicians, either. I get it that there are jackasses in my professions- all of them. Again, I don't need lessons from you in this, but your point is well taken, if redundant.

Two posts ago you were pouting because I took my ball and went home. Now you want the last word. A2D with yourself, I suppose, but it makes it much easier for the rest of the world who has to deal with you when you A2A with yourself, and stick with one not mutually-exclusive story.

Here's what you don't get, despite my plain English: being your competitor does not provide me, you or anybody else with the excuse to "cut your throat and sell my grandmother", whether that competition is on the baseball field, in the courtroom, or in the general world. I can compete with and beat someone while respecting him and leave both our dignities intact. It's called class. It's called honor. I don't claim to have a corner on the market, but I'm doing my dead-level best to get better at it.


Strikes and outs!

Here, here! Well said BL! WWTB you're up.

Your Honor, I move for a change in venue, and if that is denied, at least a gag order!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_12_23v.gif

I get it now. I see that in discussing how there is competition in the umpiring community AND in the courtroom, two lessons I did not need, you chose, of all the metaphors in the world, to say, "cut your throat and sell my grandmother." And you chose, as the group upon which to express that metaphor, the group I belong to in my "real" job, attorneys. I'm inclined to believe that wasn't an accident.

Apparently you did need the lesson, as you wrote that umpires are a family. No, umpiring is a profession and a very competitive profession at that. I don't count the guys that volunteer their umpiring skills as part of my 'family'. They may make the same calls and wear a uniform, but we are not part of the same 'family' any more than the ambulance chaser is part of yours. I chose the legal profession because of your nom de net - it was not a metaphor, but rather an analogy. I'll write slower next time.

Quoting you is not twisting your words. Quoting you is posting your words. I have to confess some amazement at your faux applause at my "lawyerly" skill of twisting words, something I am not doing, while all the while telling me I must be no good as a lawyer. What I am doing is akin to having the reporter read back your testimony.

Quoting out of context is twisting words. I used many of yours and you accused me of the same thing. I believe you even wrote not to use your words against you. Ha, lah me!

When the talking point stops working, switch it up. Turn it upside down. That's the oldest propaganda technique in the book, predating Machiavelli. I have never insulted lawyers on this board, and you are insulting me by saying so. How dare you? We have never been at war with Oceania . .

Classic Rutism...when you can't answer the charges or they hit too close to home, claim that the other guy(s) aren't playing fair. Remember what I wrote about words not hurting? Good lord, if you want a match of wordsmiths, I'll happily oblige. Just make sure you read them before responding.

I get that the world doesn't love lawyers as a group. In general, the world doesn't like used car salesmen, journalists or politicians, either. I get it that there are jackasses in my professions- all of them. Again, I don't need lessons from you in this, but your point is well taken, if redundant.

Sure, you did, that is why you wrote that I disparaged your group. I guess calling them jackasses was a term of endearment. Okay, I know how I shall start referring to you.

Two posts ago you were pouting because I took my ball and went home. Now you want the last word. A2D with yourself, I suppose, but it makes it much easier for the rest of the world who has to deal with you when you A2A with yourself, and stick with one not mutually-exclusive story.

Two posts ago, I reminded you that you acted like a spurned school girl. "If I can't have my way and convince the world that I'm right, then I'm not going to listen anymore." You keep refusing to acknowledge that your supposition about umpire competition is without merit. Even the volunteers at LL are jealous of the guys that get asked to do the playoffs. They wonder aloud why so and so got the call when I'm so much better. Then they work to position themselve in a better light than the next guy. Wake up, blue...you're missing a good game.

Here's what you don't get, despite my plain English: being your competitor does not provide me, you or anybody else with the excuse to "cut your throat and sell my grandmother", whether that competition is on the baseball field, in the courtroom, or in the general world. I can compete with and beat someone while respecting him and leave both our dignities intact. It's called class. It's called honor. I don't claim to have a corner on the market, but I'm doing my dead-level best to get better at it.

I never said that being competitive precluded or enabled animosity, I simply explained why it occurs. I guess you don't read the papers because I see countless stories of jealous rages and uncivil behavior amongst competitors. People who hire hitmen to kill rivals, colleagues who get into fisticuffs over a professional slight, husbands/wives who run over alleged spousal suitors, etc...I'm not making an excuse for it, but I'm not saying that we should all just get along. Rivalries make us better - knowing that I have a fellow umpire nipping at my heels for a playoff spot makes me work harder. His insults and taunts make me stronger. Your Christ-like posit of turn the other cheek is noble but ridiculous. You have just served up a couple pages of examples of how to do the opposite of what you spoke. Rather than accede to my A2D post, you continued to mock and stir the waters. Is this the idea you were espousing?

Your idea of honor differs from the Muslim extremist. My idea of class varies greatly from the guy in the doublewide. Tolerance is not something that is universally accepted. Maturity dictates that if my words or actions offend you, walk away. I believe that is what you were alluding to before. Don't pontificate that your sense of right and wrong is any more honorable than mine. I've read your posts and you've scanned some of mine. You made judgements here and in other threads that were off the mark. I shouldn't be surprised by them, but they've lost all sense of worth and humor. Go back to my original retort and you'll find that I made very succinct and direct replies. You may want a vanilla world but who gets to decide if we should have burquas or mini skirts? This idea of family is practical on Sunday morning...then the real world arrives.

Busta A Cap
 

SOUNDS TO ME LIKE TWO OLD WHITE GUYS ENGAGED IN A GANGSTA RAP WAR.:eek:

YO, BOY!!!!