Foul tip? Direct?
 

BigUmp brought up a point in the flow chart about foul tips being "direct from bat to catcher's mitt".

Last night I had a play that brought this into question. 2 strikes, batter tries to get out of the way of a pitch on his hands. The ball hits bat (either the handle or knob, definatly not the hand) and richoches back into the catcher's mitt. The ball did change angle's due to contact with the bat.

Well at first I called foul, because I thought there was no way this ball was caught (white uniform on the batter, lost sight of the ball), then the catcher turns around and has it in the heel of his glove (a very nice play by him).

I called the batter out.

The pitch was direct from the bat to the catcher's mitt. It wasn't direct from the pitcher to the catcher, but that isn't in the criteria. When is the "direct" rule violated? Was it in my scenario?

Thanks.

Good call.

Directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt.

After hitting the mitt, it may be bobbled and caught in the mitt or hand.

When the ball goes from bat to chest protector to mitt, it is not direct. Your call was accurate.

Been wonderin'
 

If the ball goes direct from bat to chest to mitt, what's the call?

Foul Ball:cool:

Paul

Foul ball. If the ball goes sharp and direct to the mitt or hand, then to the chest protector it can still be caught as a foul tip on the rebound.


A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand. A foul tip can only be caught be the catcher.


Tim.

tussagee11,

While it is hard to say definitively without having been there, I would certainly agree with Nick and Don that it would appear you made the correct call in the situation you described.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you have two other questions.

1. What constitutes "direct" in the context of the rule.

and

2. How does the "angle of deflection" affect the proper ruling.

Question 1 is fairly straightforward, while question 2 is a little trickier.

Question 1:
As Don says, "When the ball goes from bat to chest protector to mitt, it is not direct." This is absolutely correct. For a foul tip to be "direct" enough, the first thing it must hit after hitting the bat is "the catcher's glove or hand." If it hits something else first (chest protector, shin guard, umpire, the ground, whatever...) it cannot be a "foul tip".

If it does hit the catcher's glove or hand first, and then hits something else, and the catcher ultimately catches it, it mayor may not be a foul tip. If it has hit the catcher's glove or hand first and is still "in flight" (in the strict baseball sense) when the catcher gains secure posession, it is a foul tip. (Under FED rules, I believe this is also true if a fielder other than the catcher is the one to achieve secure posession.)

Question 2:
Here is how I think of it, and this may not be the correct way to think of it. If the "foul tip" rule did not exist, any time the pitch hit the bat and the catcher held on to it while the ball was still "in flight", the batter would be out. (Ref. 6.05(a)). The count wouldn't matter.

The rulesmakers decided that if the batter "barely nicked" the pitch, and altered it's path so slightly that the catcher managed to catch it anyway, the defense hadn't really "earned" an out if the batter has less than two strikes.

So, they decided to treat it as if the batter had "swung and missed".

Now, there are a couple of things that most people seem to intuitively "get" and "not get" about this rule.

The things people seem to "get" are:

1. A foul tip is properly ruled a strike.

2. If the foul tip is strike three, the batter is out. If it is not strike three he is not out.

The things people seem to "not get" are:

1. The ball remains live.

2. The ball remains live.

So, to see if this makes any sense, I'm going to pose two hypothetical situations and ask you for your ruling in each. (If you are certain you know the answers, please refrain from responding for awhile.)

In both situations, there is 1 out, an R1 and an R2, and the count is 2 balls, 1 strike on the batter.

Both runners are stealing on the pitch.

In both situations, the catcher eventually catches the ball, which is still "in flight" , while both he and the ball are completely in fair territory.

In both situations, the batter takes a mighty swing and barely nicks the ball.

In both situations, having caught the ball, the catcher fires it to F3, who steps on 1B as the R1 and R2 reach their advance bases.

In situation A, the ball tipped the catcher's glove, hit his helmet and bounced 20' in the air (over fair territory).

In situation B, it didn't tip his glove and everything else is the same.

What's your call?

JM

A. Foul tip, runners advance

B. Foul ball, runners return

Why was the catcher throwing to F3 on strike 2?

I'm a bit confused. Maybe I'm just tired from extra innings tonight, and read something wrong.

First off, I have not read SDSteve's post. Interesting scenarios. Obviously, in situation B, the ball is dead as soon as it hits his helmet. It is a foul ball because even if he catches it, it would not be direct. So I'm killing that one right away, and sending runners back.

In situation A, if I read correctly, you have the batter tipping the ball to the top of the catchers mitt, hitting the helmet, richoching way into the air, the catcher then coming into fair territory to catch the ball. Out or foul ball? Well conventional testing wisdom would tell me this is an out, since the other scenario is not an out. But something bothers me about calling this an out. It has to do with the catcher coming out of the catcher's box to make this play. And the ball not being a fumble in his chest off the glove. So I, without looking at the wording of the rule book, am going to say this is a foul ball too. A wierd play indeed...

Regarding the tag up at first you suggest in both scenarios, it doesn't apply, its just a simple strikeout. If it is a strikeout, then the ball is live, and runners can advance as they wish without having to retouch, obviously.

But there was only one strike on the batter. Now there are two.

See what I get for not paying attention!

I am killing both still. Not completely sure about Situation A. Doesn't seem like the intent of the rule (I know, opening another can of worms) I don't have my rule books up here so I can't go word for word through them to get a good answer.

Take my last post and imagine there was 2 strikes. I'm tired. Its almost 3am.

Hell, I'm tired and it's only midnight here. Gotta love extra innings night games!

I still say that it's a foul tip in A, because it went sharp and direct to the catcher's mitt, and then was caught by the catcher. That is the very definition of a foul tip. Nothing happened to change it into a foul ball. If the catcher didn't end up catching it, then it would have been foul.

I know exactly what you are saying. It just seems to wierd to be a foul tip.

I guess it's direct from bat to glove, and then never hit the ground in the catcher's attempt to secure the ball. Foul tip, strike 2.

Good question, really had to think through the wierdness of the play. Now that I've done it, I will be ready to call it. Preperation is what its all about.

JM,

Any more PM's?

If not, I'm gonna hit the hay, it's been a long day!

Steve,

Just one. Go to bed. Catch ya later.

JM

Hey coach,

Was the 20' in the air and in fair territory just an attempt at confusion?
Sit. A whether fair or foul makes no difference.

Caught fly ball?
 

I don't know why situation B isn't a caught fly ball. Batted ball hit person of a fielder in foul territory and was caught before hitting the ground.

Lil Leaguer,

Once the ball hit the catcher's mask without first hitting the glove or hand, it is a dead ball immediately.

Rule 2.00 FOUL BALL:

A foul ball is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or betwen home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

Rule 2.00 FOUL TIP:

A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

And there's the lucky batter I had last year in the playoffs. The pitch is behind him and nicks the bat to deflect straight into the catchers mitt!

Remedial reading needed!
 

Thanks. I can't explain how I missed that clear language in "both" rule sets.

Thanks to all who responded. I've been away from my computer since this morning.

A couple of things.

As Steve pointed out in his first post on this thread, "Situation A" is definitely a "foul tip". Since the ball remains live, the runners keep their advance bases.
And strike two is added to the batter's count.

NIump50,

the bit about the ball going over fair territory was purely "distracting" information. It has no bearing on the call. I just wanted to make the point that once the batted ball hit the catcher over foul territory, there is no way it could become fair. I also set up the sitch so that if someone did think it became fair, they might think an IFF call was appropriate. Didn't appear that anyone went down that path.

The reason I included "Situation B" is because I am confused about the correct answer. I am positive it is NOT a "foul tip", but I still can't decide if it is properly ruled a foul, dead ball (as SD Steve suggests) or whether it is a legally "caught" batted foul fly, with the ball in play and the runners in jeopardy until they retouch.

Now Steve posted the text of the relevant rules and made a good case for treating my "Situation B" as a dead ball, foul. He may very well be correct.

The reason I am not sure is that the ball DIDN'T go "...sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands...". It went sharp and direct to (let's say, the top) of the catcher's helmet. The batter's "nick" of the ball changed the path of the ball away from the area of the catcher's hands. So it didn't meet the "sharp and direct" criteria necessary to be covered by the Foul Tip rule. Or did it? Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

What say you?

JM

.02 .................................
 

If it does not touch the catcher's hand(s), it is a foul ball.



Doug

Doug,

Immediately dead or (in the sitch posed) caught for an out?

JM

JM,

As I said, once it touches anything of the catchers other than his hand or glove, it is dead immediately. Don't you trust me? I wouldn't steer ya wrong. This is Umpiring 101 stuff. It is still too sharp and direct to be a regular catchable foul fly ball. It has to have an arc, which is judgement on the part of the umpire, but if fouled straight back into the catcher's helmet, it is a dead soldier.

A foul ball is not the same as a fly ball over foul territory. I think that is where your confusion lies, JM. A foul ball is dead. It cannot be caught for an out. A fly ball over foul ground can be caught for an out.

Sorry for being late .....................
 

As SDSteve said, immediately dead.




Doug

Steve (and Doug),

Thank you for indulging me while I beat this particular horse well past the point of death.

I found the following in JEA (no excuses for not finding it earlier):

,

which certainly (at least in my mind) supports your assertion that my "Situation B" is properly ruled a "dead ball, foul".

I will now return to the dugout and attempt to refrain from further interrupting the progress of the game. :o

JM