Here a balk, there a balk...
 

Ignoring the "foul ball into the mitt" mess where I had to invoke the "runner cannot retreat after legally obtaining" rule...

R1. Pitcher lifts stride leg towards 3rd, pivots and throws to first. I have a balk here, as has been discussed ad nauseum here. I decided to have fun with the explanation and told the coach this is similar to the pitcher going behind the rubber, then to a base...that's TWO directions, not one.

R2 (luckily, this wasn't the same pitcher). Pitcher lifts stride leg up, while looking at 2nd...then I guess he decided mid-move he wasn't going to throw to 2nd and put his leg back down again WITHOUT taking a step towards 2nd. I have a balk here, correct...not for the move, but for not throwing home.

Just wanting to confirm these were the correct interpretations/explanations.

1) Once the pitcher lifts his leg to "balance" (assuming RHP), he can only go home, 3rd, or 2nd. Going to 1st would be a balk

2) You can balk him on a variety of infractions here. Failing to deliver the pitch or step not gaining distance nor direction toward 2nd would be another.

orioles35,

Both balk calls sound perfectly proper to me & bossman72 has provided the explanations.

However, I'm a little intrigued by your opening "teaser"...

Would you care to elaborate on the play and your call?

JM

As you can imagine, the usual stuff...R1, runner stealing on the pitch. Foul ball into the mitt, catcher throws to 2nd, not in time. Defensive coach is calling "foul ball, foul ball..." neither my partner or I are saying anything since the ball is in play and the base was stolen. I don't know if the SS or the 2B told the runner it was foul, or his base coach or if he was just confused, but he wandered off the bag and started to head back to first. One of the kids was on the ball and went to tag the runner out.

I don't know what the exact rule is, but it reads something like "once a runner has legally obtained a base, he cannot retreat to a prior base after the play has ended" (leaving the door open for a runner to retouch DURING a play, if necessary).

I called time and sent the runner back to 2nd. I told the defensive coach:

1) A foul ball directly into the catcher's mitt was still in play
2) He was not to interrupt the game in the manner again and if he had a question about a ruling, please wait until the play has ended, call time and we will discuss it with him.
3) Told him about the rule above and that we would be placing the runner back on 2nd.

Some games when this happens, I don't hear a word. Others, it seems the whole stands gets into it and causes confusion and delay (Thomas the Train reference). I can ignore fans until they have an impact on the game like that.

To avoid confusion you might want to start calling it a foul tip.


Tim.

The book says somewhere (I don't have mine with me at the moment) that one cannot run the bases in reverse order to make a mockery of the game. In that case the runner would be called. However, if the runner heads back to the previous base and he gets tagged, I also have an out. It's up to him and/or his coach to know the situation. If he wanders away, he does so at his own risk.

Consider a variation on this theme. What if R1 rounds second on a caught flyball? Are you saying that he wouldn't be permitted to return to first since he had already acquired second?

Outs are sometimes hard to come by. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :)

No, there are a few things that coaches/players cannot simulate the call of. "FOUL BALL!!" is one of them. You can't let the team of this coach benefit from yelling "FOUL BALL" (baserunner can't be expected to distinguish between a coach's voice and the umpire's).

No, I didn't mean that...which is why I added the "...when the play was over" part so retouch would be possible WHILE the play was still on-going.

If the opposing coach hadn't been insisting (incorrectly) that the ball was dead because of a foul ball, I wouldn't have had any problem with the runner being called out (I was PU last night, BTW). Since the coaches got involved, I didn't see fit to penalize the offense.

"Caught Foul Tip"?!?!? It's not splitting hairs - that's just flat wrong. And redundant. And repetitive. And redundant.

By definition, a foul tip must be caught - an uncaught one is no longer a foul tip. And no one with an ounce of training would call this a "Caught Foul Tip."

orioles,

When the foul tip happened, did you verbalize anything at all? did you say "Foul Tip!" or "Foul ball!" ??

Nothing verbalized. Since the batter swung, I signaled "strike" and let the play develop.

orioles35,

I'm a little confused about why you killed the play as the defense was making a legitimate attempt to put out the clueless runner who had left the base in his mistaken belief that he had to return to 1B.

In your initial description, it was the offensive coach who was saying "foul ball". Why punish the defense? If you are playing under FED rules, there is the notion of "Verbal Obstruction" which would apply if someone on the defense told the runner it was a foul ball - but you said you didn't know who told him.

Their are two rules (OBR) about the runner running the bases in reverese order. The one more people have heard of is 7.08(i) which contains the ever popular "travesty of the game" phrase; it only applies when the runner does it to intentionally "confuse the defense", not when he is under the false impression that he must return to a previous base.

The less familiar one is 7.01 - which applies after the ...pitcher assumes his pitching position.... If the runner attempts to return after the pitcher engages the rubber, he is properly called out, no matter what the reason for his return.

Sounds like you were helping the offense on this one. Umpires aren't supposed to do that.

JM

I'll bite. What's a little "time out" signal?

Do you mean brushing the back of your left hand with your right high enough for your partner to see?

Tim.

Had a coach going nuts on me once because he wanted the runner who had safely stolen second to return to first. Had to repeat foul tip over and over he kept hearing the foul part. Gotta love small town coaches. I finally asked if that had been the third strike would he want the batter to be out?
He agreed he would. "Then it has to be a live ball"............and a 15 watt bulb lit just a smidge

My mistake. It was the defensive coach that was claiming it was foul (and dead). I corrected that in my original post.

Well......that's DIFFERENT! Never Mind. :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Emily.jpg

Good to see Emily again! R.I.P. Gilda.....

[QUOTE=orioles35]
I don't know what the exact rule is, but it reads something like "once a runner has legally obtained a base, he cannot retreat to a prior base after the play has ended" (leaving the door open for a runner to retouch DURING a play, if necessary).
QUOTE]Godd reason why you "don't know what the exact rule is ...":
Ain't no such rule in baseball for a sitch where the ball is live.

IF THE BALL BECOMES DEAD after a runner acquires a base, a runner cannot return to retouch a base that was missed or left early [unless required to return by a "runners return .." type of penalty /award].

Did PWL say "uncaught foul tip"?? Once a foul "tip" is not caught it becomes a "foul ball". I would use the "little" foul ball signal in this situation.

Bob P.

What in the world is the "little time out signal?" The world is still awaiting this explanation.:rolleyes:

All you are to do is give the "foul tip" signal and the "strike" signal. I am unfamiliar with the "little time out signal."

[quote=cbfoulds]7.01 casebook comment. If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

[QUOTE=NFump]Good point, hadn't been thinking of that one, which, in my defense, is inaposite to the original sitch. Also, see:

7.08(i) <SNIP> ... If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.
[my emphasis]

Since a foul tip is by definition a swinging strike, there is no verbalization.

Yes, i know this. I was asking just in case orioles did it- which would lead to confusion on the field.

I'll toss this out to try and help answer the question about the "time out" signal. In the back of the Fed rule book, the "Mechanics" illustrations show the umpire making what appears to be a 'time out' signal (like I'm typically used to seeing a basketball player use towards the official). I was taught to signal a foul tip by brushing the palm/fingertips of one hand across the back of the other, so seeing the mechanic depicted this way was a bit confusing. I wasn't sure if this was a different mechanic or just how the one I learned was drawn. Guess I'm not crazy after all (well, not as much as I'd thought :D ).

I'm looking at the 2005 book (the only one I have) and it shows and describes the mechanic as "the palms of the hands glance off each other as they pass above eye level, followed by a strike call." That's a bit more like it.

It really should read "followed by a non-verbal strike signal."

That so-called "little time out signal" is what referees use for a technical foul signal in basketball, yet I have seen older FED baseball mechanic pictures depicting a similar motion for foul tip.

I have never paterned my signals after the hyserically funny pictures in the FED rule book. Play Ball is especially ROTFLMAO funny. Looks like the guy is smacking himself in the mask. What's wrong with a good point to the pitcher?