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-   -   AMLU negotiators, MiLB officials and a federal mediator meet in Cincinnati! (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/26270-amlu-negotiators-milb-officials-federal-mediator-meet-cincinnati.html)

SanDiegoSteve Mon May 01, 2006 09:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Its not even a matter of whether one is pro-union or anti-union. It is just plain unethical and unprofessional for other officials to be umpiring these games while their officiating brethen are trying to bargin for better working conditions.

MTD, Sr.
Who was going to umpire them then? A group of nuns complete with habit? Did you think they were going to cancel the games just because the umpires did not want to work them? That would have been really fair to everyone connected with the teams, huh? What about those people? The concession stand workers, janitors, parking personnel, etc.? What do they tell their families when they get home? "Gee, honey, the umpires walked off, so we don't get paid either. I guess we're going to be homeless now!"
The actions of these AMLU guys would have affected many other peoples lives if not for the brave men who stepped in to umpire the games that otherwise would have not been played.

Make no mistake, no pressure from the AMLU would have caused the cancellation of these minor league games.

WhatWuzThatBlue Mon May 01, 2006 11:03pm
I should get a royalty for that one SDS. Those very words rolled off my fingertips months ago. You'll never convince them that they aren't more important than the others.

Mark will never understand why it is okay for the AMLU members to f*^k many, many others over, but not acceptable for the replacements to make their house payments. The hypocrisy involved in his arguments are outrageous, even for a union guy.

In teh trickle down theory of umpiring, those who are the best stepped up and took those replacement assignments. By doing so, they opened up some games to others who now have a chance to prove themselves...and so on...and so on...

Yet, a few still insist that the integrity of the game is suffering. If God himself was calling the Yankees game, George would say that he missed a couple.

SAump Mon May 01, 2006 11:16pm
Game day perspective
 
The AMLU hasn't done anything to explain why they should earn a hefty raise this year.
Baseball management has not taken the AMLU bargaining position very seriously.

PBUC offered AMLU a $500 raise over a 140 game season. Each umpire would have earned an extra $3.57 a game.
How do you suppose PBUC came up with the rationale for $3.57 for all 15 leagues (A, AA and AAA)?

Can anyone find out how much the replacements are raking in?
Now, do you suppose PBUC has any kind of explanation from the bean counters?

WhatWuzThatBlue Mon May 01, 2006 11:52pm
Try reading the stories here and you'll find that plenty of info about pay schedules is available. I posted a story that showed an alternate made $60 a game last year and he now makes $90. That is less than some of us make for Juco and NCAA ball, but he was happy with it.

PBUC doesn't have to pay hotel, per diem, uniform and benefits to the independent contractors they are now using. The bean counters are very happy to have the AMLU guys looking for landscaping jobs.

socalblue1 Mon May 01, 2006 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Whoa, padnah'...it seems you've gotten tangled in your reins!

Here's a test: What is more unethical...

1) Posting the photographs, names, addresses and emails of the replacement umpires to further the terrorizing of those 'brethren'?

2) Making veiled threats that umpires may find their automobiles vandalized?

3) Threatening to blackball them within their local organizations?

You continue to dismiss these replacements as taking money out of the pockets of the 'real' minor league umpires. The 'real' umpires made the decision to not work those games. They walked away from their responsibilities and opportunities. The replacements often need the money just as much. Their bills seem to be less important than the AMLU guys' in your opinion.

The AMLU gang made a tactical error. Amateur umpiring has reached exceptional levels. Better schooling, desire and resources have shrunk the disparity that once existed between the ranks. They continue to resist the notion that they have been successfully replaced. PBUC has always had the upper hand and it is a shame that the AMLU guys failed to realize it. They blinked...

I do not like unions. Often they create better training programs and offer assistance to those who may need it. However, they also create a sense of complacency and mediocrity. That is not to say that some union members aren't prideful and provide superior services for the money. More often than not, the world see unions as greedy and corrupt. The better members are glossed over and forgotten. This is a case that displays terrible strategy and even worse bargaining skills. It is not Christmas and they weren't going to right a decades long wrong in one fell swoop.

Being anti-union does not make me hate the individual member umpire. I take issue with the way they have collectively tried to defame the amateur umpire. Indivdually, I have taken issue with Jim Shaw and Clint Lawson for pretending that this is only about economics. It is about power and desire to be recognized as more than trainees. The system pays them what they are worth. In an irony not lost on me, the replacements are making better salaries than some regulars. Do you still wonder why they crossed the picket line? Maybe that replacement umpire knows that his twenty games will pay for Junior's orthodonture or Missy's school clothes. I know, they are just 'scabs' who are taking advantage of someone else's misfortune. Keep telling yourself that...we all make choices based on what is important to our families. I don't call up the husbands of old girlfriends, shout names and threaten them for stealing relationships though. Stop trying to justify what they are doing as professional.

Go check out that AMLU roster again and see how many are married and have children. You'll be very surprised at what you see.
As long as I can continue to annoy Windbag & SDS…….

The entire issue is based on two things:
1. Money
2. Respect

The good folks at MiLB and PBUC have only one goal – make as much money as possible, regardless of which they trample. In many ways they emulate the railway barons; lie, cheat, yellow press – as long as the money flows in who cares?

MiLB has zero respect for the players, fans, employees or the game itself. Why should they? MLB pays for the players, field staff and many other expenses. If they could make more $$$ on pig races, the warning tracks would get lane stripes.

Is it wrong for AMLU to ask for the recognition that they are in fact professionals? Granted that umpiring in the minor leagues is never going to make anyone rich or perhaps even comfortable paying a living wage is not an unreasonable request by any means.

The strike will end once MLB decides that the risk to their player investment has become too high for comfort. Until then, I fear that things will become more confrontational and less level-headed by both sides. (I do not and will never condone the actions of a few on both sides of this strike. Let us all hope they if nothing else, reasonable actions prevail).

MrB Tue May 02, 2006 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalblue1
As long as I can continue to annoy Windbag & SDS…….

The entire issue is based on two things:
1. Money
2. Respect

The good folks at MiLB and PBUC have only one goal – make as much money as possible, regardless of which they trample. In many ways they emulate the railway barons; lie, cheat, yellow press – as long as the money flows in who cares?

MiLB has zero respect for the players, fans, employees or the game itself. Why should they? MLB pays for the players, field staff and many other expenses. If they could make more $$$ on pig races, the warning tracks would get lane stripes.

Is it wrong for AMLU to ask for the recognition that they are in fact professionals? Granted that umpiring in the minor leagues is never going to make anyone rich or perhaps even comfortable paying a living wage is not an unreasonable request by any means.

The strike will end once MLB decides that the risk to their player investment has become too high for comfort. Until then, I fear that things will become more confrontational and less level-headed by both sides. (I do not and will never condone the actions of a few on both sides of this strike. Let us all hope they if nothing else, reasonable actions prevail).
Jim,

When the guys get released and replaced, can I come on out to SoCal and work a Cal League game or two with ya?

SanDiegoSteve Tue May 02, 2006 12:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalblue1
As long as I can continue to annoy Windbag & SDS…….

The entire issue is based on two things:
1. Money
2. Respect

The good folks at MiLB and PBUC have only one goal – make as much money as possible, regardless of which they trample. In many ways they emulate the railway barons; lie, cheat, yellow press – as long as the money flows in who cares?

MiLB has zero respect for the players, fans, employees or the game itself. Why should they? MLB pays for the players, field staff and many other expenses. If they could make more $$$ on pig races, the warning tracks would get lane stripes.

Is it wrong for AMLU to ask for the recognition that they are in fact professionals? Granted that umpiring in the minor leagues is never going to make anyone rich or perhaps even comfortable paying a living wage is not an unreasonable request by any means.

The strike will end once MLB decides that the risk to their player investment has become too high for comfort. Until then, I fear that things will become more confrontational and less level-headed by both sides. (I do not and will never condone the actions of a few on both sides of this strike. Let us all hope they if nothing else, reasonable actions prevail).
What you said here does not annoy me in any way. In fact, I agree with everything you said. Is it wrong for AMLU to ask for the recognition that they are professionals? Not at all. Nobody on this forum disputes this! Everyone here knows how sh*tty they have been treated by MiLB and PBUC. You are right! Nobody at these corporations gives a rat's a$$ about the AMLU. They are all about the cheddar, just like all rats are.

The issues we have with what is happening are these:

1. From Day 1 everyone in the AMLU knew that this is the way it is. Nobody promised them a rose garden here. Everyone knows what the term "Baseball's Narrowest Door" means. Let's not kid one another.

2. It seems that in walking off the job and not working these assigned games, the AMLU had the weird notion that the powers that be would just crumble to their knees begging them to return, and that there would be no baseball without them.

3. Then when the AMLU realized that, hey, they're gonna play ball with or without us, they started assailing and demonizing umpires for stepping in and taking their place, after assuming that nobody would dare cross the artificial line they drew. That was a really bad assumption on their part.

I will repeat again, ad nauseum, the fact that these games were going to get played (and umpired) whether the AMLU liked it or not. Most people are non-union in nature, not anti-union. Those people don't have to honor a picket line, and should not be condemned for not viewing the situation in the same light.

socalblue1 Tue May 02, 2006 02:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrB
Jim,

When the guys get released and replaced, can I come on out to SoCal and work a Cal League game or two with ya?
ONLY if you can keep up with these youngsters better than me! Danged knee is STILL slowing me down.

socalblue1 Tue May 02, 2006 02:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
What you said here does not annoy me in any way. In fact, I agree with everything you said. Is it wrong for AMLU to ask for the recognition that they are professionals? Not at all. Nobody on this forum disputes this! Everyone here knows how sh*tty they have been treated by MiLB and PBUC. You are right! Nobody at these corporations gives a rat's a$$ about the AMLU. They are all about the cheddar, just like all rats are.

The issues we have with what is happening are these:

1. From Day 1 everyone in the AMLU knew that this is the way it is. Nobody promised them a rose garden here. Everyone knows what the term "Baseball's Narrowest Door" means. Let's not kid one another.

2. It seems that in walking off the job and not working these assigned games, the AMLU had the weird notion that the powers that be would just crumble to their knees begging them to return, and that there would be no baseball without them.

3. Then when the AMLU realized that, hey, they're gonna play ball with or without us, they started assailing and demonizing umpires for stepping in and taking their place, after assuming that nobody would dare cross the artificial line they drew. That was a really bad assumption on their part.

I will repeat again, ad nauseum, the fact that these games were going to get played (and umpired) whether the AMLU liked it or not. Most people are non-union in nature, not anti-union. Those people don't have to honor a picket line, and should not be condemned for not viewing the situation in the same light.
Steve,

For the most part I agree with your thoughts, though I still feel that one should not throw a fellow umpire under the bus (In this case by working his/her games).

The funny thing is that 90% of the time the fill-in/scab (Take your pick of terms) have helped solidify the AMLU message that it takes pro umpires to work the pro game.

Will the games be played? Without a doubt. Will player development be adversly affected? Long A & above yes, Rookie/Short A - perhaps / perhaps not.

There have been some minor injuries & a few close calls so far. I hope MLB steps in & takes control before someone is badly hurt (I don't care if it's a player or umpire).

WhatWuzThatBlue Tue May 02, 2006 03:29am
You are amusing, not annoying...you give yourself far too much credit.

I'm tired so I'll make it brief, player development will not suffer with the bodies they have out there and the ones who will soon join them. The competency of the umpires has never factored into the equation to release or promote and individual. Eric Gregg was one of the most incompetent fools to walk the big league diamonds and I don't recall anyone being released because of his zone! Who are you kidding?

Listen to the International League President's interview. He is content with the umpires he sees and that is AAA! In fact, he knows that with the AMLU decision, his representatives have just made his job easier. They will contact the D1 crews and former minor leaguer blues to come do the work. They can handle anything that comes their way.

I enjoyed your response to Mr. B, how does that bum knee effect your ability to deliver the effort demanded by those players? Don't they deserve a fleet footed gazelle with twenty-twenty vision and unimpeachable morals out there? By your own admission, you aren't providing the quality that a 'regular guy' does. You make this far too easy.

I'm tired and I need my beauty rest or I'll look like Ernest Borgnine soon. (Yes, I know he's dead, that just makes it worse!)

Rich Tue May 02, 2006 06:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
You are amusing, not annoying...you give yourself far too much credit.

I'm tired so I'll make it brief, player development will not suffer with the bodies they have out there and the ones who will soon join them. The competency of the umpires has never factored into the equation to release or promote and individual. Eric Gregg was one of the most incompetent fools to walk the big league diamonds and I don't recall anyone being released because of his zone! Who are you kidding?

Listen to the International League President's interview. He is content with the umpires he sees and that is AAA! In fact, he knows that with the AMLU decision, his representatives have just made his job easier. They will contact the D1 crews and former minor leaguer blues to come do the work. They can handle anything that comes their way.

I enjoyed your response to Mr. B, how does that bum knee effect your ability to deliver the effort demanded by those players? Don't they deserve a fleet footed gazelle with twenty-twenty vision and unimpeachable morals out there? By your own admission, you aren't providing the quality that a 'regular guy' does. You make this far too easy.

I'm tired and I need my beauty rest or I'll look like Ernest Borgnine soon. (Yes, I know he's dead, that just makes it worse!)
Ernest Borgnine is 89 and very much alive.

Bob Lyle Tue May 02, 2006 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Its not even a matter of whether one is pro-union or anti-union. It is just plain unethical and unprofessional for other officials to be umpiring these games while their officiating brethen are trying to bargin for better working conditions.

MTD, Sr.
Mark;

Please tell me why this is unethical. Please tell me why this is unprofessional.

Ethics are prinicipals drawn from long standing philosophical and religious documents. They often have a basis in the law as well.

Where in the Bible, Torah, or Koran does it tell one that he cannot do a job that someone else refuses to do?

What law has one broken if he takes a job as a replacement umpire?

Please name some established philosophers and a specific writing that makes it unethical to work as a replacement umpire.

Professionalism standards are drawn from published documents that have standing within the profession. Where in the "Instructions to Umpires, Rule 9, or other tomes of baseball does it prohibit umpires from working as replacements?

BTW, don't quote the Golden Rule to me. I've never been on strike and will never go on strike. There is simply no way that I can connect with "Do unto others..." in this situation. In may interest you to know that I am a card carrying union member of a public employees union. We are forbidden to strike. If my union ordered a strike, I would ignore their instructions.

Thanks,

Bob

WhatWuzThatBlue Tue May 02, 2006 11:18am
Good Lord, you mean he just looks dead! I may be popping for some Botox soon...he doesn't look a day over ninety eight. Thanks for the update Rich and my apologies to all the Ernest Borgnine fans amongst us.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue May 02, 2006 01:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lyle
Mark;

Please tell me why this is unethical. Please tell me why this is unprofessional.

Ethics are prinicipals drawn from long standing philosophical and religious documents. They often have a basis in the law as well.

Where in the Bible, Torah, or Koran does it tell one that he cannot do a job that someone else refuses to do?

What law has one broken if he takes a job as a replacement umpire?

Please name some established philosophers and a specific writing that makes it unethical to work as a replacement umpire.

Professionalism standards are drawn from published documents that have standing within the profession. Where in the "Instructions to Umpires, Rule 9, or other tomes of baseball does it prohibit umpires from working as replacements?

BTW, don't quote the Golden Rule to me. I've never been on strike and will never go on strike. There is simply no way that I can connect with "Do unto others..." in this situation. In may interest you to know that I am a card carrying union member of a public employees union. We are forbidden to strike. If my union ordered a strike, I would ignore their instructions.

Thanks,

Bob


If you are looking for ethical considerations, you won't find in in any religious texts because that is not the ethical conduct to which I am referring. It is the ethical conduct of professionals and all sports officials whether they like it are not are participating in an profession that masquerades as an anvocation. Research the various codes of ethics for officials of organizations such as NASO, NFHS, ABUA, or IAABO; or the ASCE, ASME, NSPE, AMA, ADA, or AVA.

The minor league umpires have not had a raise in over ten years. Even my wife understood that what the minor leages wanted the umpires to receive was not very much for the job they do. Would you go out today and umpire a H.S. baseball game for the same game fee that you received ten or fifteen years ago? I seriously doubt it.

J. Dallas Shirley, would tell baseketball officials to never say never and never say always. So please do not say that you would never go on strike. There may come a day, and I hope you do not have to face that day, that you just might have to go on strike for some of the same reasons for which today's minor league umpires are stiking and I will bet dollars to donuts that you will be singing a different tune when a scab crosses a picket line to take your job.

And the excuse that if the scabs do not umpire the games who will is the reason that we umpires should be supporting the striking umpires rather that experiencing the experience of a lifetime at the expense of the striking umpires.

MTD, Sr.

WhatWuzThatBlue Tue May 02, 2006 06:38pm
If you are looking for ethical considerations, you won't find in in any religious texts because that is not the ethical conduct to which I am referring. It is the ethical conduct of professionals and all sports officials whether they like it are not are participating in an profession that masquerades as an anvocation. Research the various codes of ethics for officials of organizations such as NASO, NFHS, ABUA, or IAABO; or the ASCE, ASME, NSPE, AMA, ADA, or AVA. I did, can you please tell us what section you are referring to? Where does it say that the umpire is bigger than the game?

The minor league umpires have not had a raise in over ten years. Even my wife understood that what the minor leages wanted the umpires to receive was not very much for the job they do. Would you go out today and umpire a H.S. baseball game for the same game fee that you received ten or fifteen years ago? I seriously doubt it. Try comparing apples to apples; plenty of our members go to work for the same wages they had years ago. LL hasn't raised the rates they pay umpires in...forever. The armed forces are receiving the same pay rate they did ten years ago. Hmmmm...

J. Dallas Shirley, would tell baseketball officials to never say never and never say always. So please do not say that you would never go on strike. There may come a day, and I hope you do not have to face that day, that you just might have to go on strike for some of the same reasons for which today's minor league umpires are stiking and I will bet dollars to donuts that you will be singing a different tune when a scab crosses a picket line to take your job. I loved that movie...Baseketball was terrfic. Those officials looked like they were having fun. Ohhhhhh, you meant another amateur sport...sorry, but my head is still spinning from the gibberish. Your sentence "There may come a day..." made some of Rut's look like Pulitzer stuff.

And the excuse that if the scabs do not umpire the games who will is the reason that we umpires should be supporting the striking umpires rather that experiencing the experience of a lifetime at the expense of the striking umpires. Take a breath and try multiple sentences. Even the IL President said that the games would still be played, no matter where they had to find umpires. The fact that they only had to look in their back yards tells a tale of woe for the AMLU. You keep insisting that these replacements are doing it for the experience of a lifetime. Why do you think they all won the lottery? When the MLB guys walked out, did those replacements work just for the experience or because they were the best available and were asked? The games still counted and a couple of those guys earned spots in the Show. Switch to decaf and stop reading what your union is sending you. Life is too short to think that one side is always correct.


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