Arguing
 

hey guys
I mentioned in an earlier post that I do not argue. Does this put my players at a disabvantage. I am a basketball officail and well arguing does in no way help a team on the court, what about in baseball? I don't see how it could.

Many coaches are under the assumption that if they argue that maybe they will get the next close call. That is a false assumption. The only thing arguing with the umpire does is piss off the umpire. Maybe it fires up the team morale a bit, but mostly just pisses off the umpire.

Arguing what? A judgment call? Not always a good idea.

You have a question about a rule, I'll call time and we can talk about it. I always want to apply to rules correctly.

You want to argue a strike/ball call of mine.......don't.

If you disagree with a safe/out call and want to talk about it then don't let yourself get out of hand. You come to me to talk about it I'll listen to you, ask you what you saw then explain to you what I saw. You won't want to push me very hard or you'll end up confined to the dugout or sitting on the bus.

I'm sure that a lot of umpires will not agree with what I'm about to say next but if I have doubts about my call I'll go to my partner for help (if he was in a position to see the play). I am not one of the old timers (but I am an old timer) that lives or dies with his call. IF my partner has something to help me I'll listen then I decide what I'll do. If it won't cause a lot of additional problems I'll change my call if, after talking with my partner, I'm 100% sure that I 'kicked' the call.....I always strive to get the call right.

As a football, basketball and baseball official/umpire, I feel baseball we have less to do with the outcome of a game than any of those sports. If a batter swings and hits the ball as umpires we have no way to control the outcome of most those plays. Of course you can argue and some might consider what you have to say. Just understand that we do not hit the ball, pitch the ball or catch the ball. Even if an umpire had something against you it is entirely possible that anything he calls is not going to make a difference.

Peace

I know several veteran coaches who seldom argue. If they come out to argue a judgment call, listen, because you probably blew one, and you are the only one who does not know it. If they come out to discuss a rule, listen, they may be right, not maybe not. These guys will be very calm arguers.

So if you never argue, you are probably hurting your team, especially if a rule is involved and you are right and the umpire is wrong. If you discuss a rule calmly the umpire will be more likely to listen to you.

American Psych?
 

The other thing I see is how players or coaches often FALSELY react to perfectly obvious judgement calls. They seek to gain an advantage by role-playing for their team FANS afterward. Perhaps the behavior should receive an ESPY award for most dramatic foolishness of the YEAR. I wonder if a new TV reality show would like to focus on this athletic behavior and attempt to control or limit the following actions of any player or coach. It seems they get away with it more often (always) than not (ever punished?). I suppose it provides entertainment value, but what has it done to our social values of taking responsibility for ones actions?

True story:

Early in the first inning of a high school aged summer travel ball tournament, I had a banger at first for the third out. Here comes the manager from the third base box yelling how his runner was safe, blah, blah, blah. As he got closer to me he silently told me, "Good call, blue. I'm just trying to support my players." I was too stunned to even reply.

RAT!!!

I have had umpires to come out and argue a call and tell me face to face, "I agree with your call but I have to prove to my team that I am fighting for them." The coach would be speaking to me in a manner that it was respectful but look more threatening. The only thing I said to the coach, I understand.

I have heard a coach ask someone to throw them from a game just to show his players he is backing them up. I am sure that has changed a great deal now since in KY a coach or school gets fined once they are ejected.

As far as does it benefit you from my standpoint, na. Will it help you get the next call, na. Now I can only speak for myself and probably most umps on here will tell you the same thing. I know and have witnessed that this does prove to work with some officials.

Not me! "Good coach, then show them your total support by having a seat in the dugout with them for the rest of the game!":eek:

Two weeks ago, I had a varsity coach approach me after what looked like a "catch and carry" on a foul ball down the 1B line. He had R2, R3, so a run was at stake, though his team was up by a lot (10 or more). I had ruled that the fielder did not leave LBT, and here comes the coach: "are you SURE he didn't... you know, I don't need this run, I shouldn't have come over here. Sorry."

Uh, no problem, coach.

Now there's a coach who knows how to preserve his ammo.

You're right - some coaches <i>are</i> under that assumption. But, depending on the personality and experience of the umpire, this could very well be a valid assumption.

I know many timid umpires who just want to get through the game as easily as a possible and with no hassles.

If a coach is pressing them hard, they WILL bend.

Example: Critical situation - bases loaded - full count on the batter - a close pitch on the outside corner that the batter takes. Very close - could probably go either way.

A timid umpire will be hyper-aware that if he calls it a certain way he is going to get an earful from the coach who has been riding his *** the whole game. So he takes the path of least resistance. An umpire like this may not even be fully aware that he has been intimidated into making that call.

Now, a different umpire, with a different personality might make this call AGAINST the red-*** coach for the same reasons.

Sometimes coaches are very good at sizing up an umpire's abilities, experience, temperament, and assertiveness. They'll model their behavior so that they have the best chance of getting their way. That same red-*** coach may calmly schmooze a different umpire. They can be like chameleons.

In short, putting the full court press on the umpire sometimes DOES gain some benefits.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

A lot of times in baseball games there is not a "next close call." Just this year I have had game after game after game where there were hardly any close calls. In most of those cases the plays were not "either or" calls. Just in my doubleheader on Saturday there was not one play I had either on the bases or on the plate. The only close call my partner might have had was a pitch or two and they did not complain until the game was almost over.

I think often times coaches complain just to complain. I have had coaches many times come out to complain only to have them admit 2 seconds in the conversation "You know I am complaining just to look good right?" Then they walk away and they do not complain about another play all day. Also I do not see the experience of the coach as a factor as if they complain or not. Coaches will try umpires they have never seen before and if they feel they can intimidate an umpire they will try. When the coach realizes the umpire is not going to budge or is not intimidated then go back into their "hole."

Peace

In my opinion, coaches in High School baseball should remember that the ball field is an extension of the class room. All participants of the game, not just the coaches, need to keep in mind that our actions are being watched by teenagers. In Kansas, we have a few coaches who come out guns blazing on all close plays, regardless of the outcome, regardless of the situation, but, for the most part, our better coaches with strong programs only come out to ask questions about rule interps or what you saw on a particular play.

I can honestly say that in my ten years of umpiring HS baseball, I have not ever had to have an ejection (I say this as I knock on my wodden desk). That's the way it should be in high school ball.

:D someone call my name?

Some coaches, especially youth coaches, think they have to be Bobby Cox and come out and scream at the umpires for every close play. This hurts the team more than it helps.

I would have to agree. At the Varsity level the veteran coach's know how to deal with umpires. I never assume that they will "NEVER" argue with me, particularly if I don't hustle or show them that I am working hard. I believe that if you do your best and give 110% you should have few problems. I have had coach's ask me about plays and rulings, they might have disagreed, but they accept my decisions and moved on. We have ex major league and high level college players coaching in our area, and that makes a difference.

Now, in sub varsity and youth ball I have found that the level of composure and behavior deteriorates as you move down. I attribute that to lack of experience and motivation, where the youth ball coach tends to want to live vicariously through their kids and they try to emulate the things they see on TV.

I had that in a Pony level game this weekend, where the coach wanted to try to extend his "authority" to include the umpire crew. We went into "red aXX" mode in a quick hurry and he figured it out very quickly. Some are quick learner's, and the slower ones learn from the parking lot. Its sort of like Darwinism.

Bob P.

At least in Tennessee, the school is fined a minimum of $250 each time a coach is ejected. The fine can be higher if it's particularly egregious.

The coach generally has to answer to the Athletic Director or Principal. This, in itself, often keeps their behavior in check.

A school simply can't AFFORD to have a Lou Pinella type of coach.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I like that.....a lot!:D

I have to weigh in on this one, being a relatively inexperienced umpire, yet still getting my fair share of NFHS varsity baseball games. The coaches that will sort of sidle up to me between innings and ask if I was "sure" about a call will really earn my respect in an instant compared to guys who will either show me up on the field or continually comment from the dugout. Usually, I will say either, "I'm sure, man." or "It was close." and they're pretty satisfied either way. The one thing that's tough is when coaches come to me to complain about my partner. I realize that I used to do that all the time when I coached. I know they're just looking for some sympathy, but I always just say something like, "He's doing fine, and I've got enough to worry about myself."

Really quick I want to follow up with a question. How does everyone feel about HP admitting that he probably missed a pitch? I miss my share, and it seems as though it's usually a pitch that I should have called a strike and didn't. Two or three times this year, I have simply stated for batter and catcher to hear: "Boys, that was a good pitch." I guess it makes me feel better, I don't know. Another instance in a recent game had ball one come in at the knees and I thought I missed it, calling it a "ball". Next pitch comes in just high - "ball". Both pitches the pitcher expressed just the slightest bit of a puzzled look. Pitch # 3 was fouled off down the left field line. As I skipped out from behind the plate and moved a little closer to the mound, the pitcher had moved in pretty close to the plate. As I flipped him the new ball, I said, "I missed the first pitch." His reply: "No problem". This was around the second inning. No problems whatsoever the rest of the way.
Is this just a plain stupid thing to do on my part?

It's not a cardinal sin to talk to the catcher. If I am asked about a pitch I am convinced I missed I will say "I missed that pitch and if I see it again it will be a strike". This will be loud enough for batter to hear.

PWL,

Huh??? :confused: In my world, all of the bases are in fair territory. So is the space over them. Even if the lines aren't laid down correctly.

JM

Yuo meen its nut a fowl bull ef its cuahgt oever teh big?

Yuo meen its nut a fowl bull ef its cuahgt oever teh big?

Its leta adn i"m lgaufng me asse oever sum recint pusts.

DG,

I thimk it wouold depind on iff the playr was proprly eqwipt.

JM

I think PWL is on to something. Once had a VERY early Saturday game, 8 AM as I recall, and the foul lines looked like they had been done by a drunk. As it turned out, THEY WERE!! The foul lines were on the inside of the bases, so that the bags were in "foul" territory. I found someone else to replace the lines.

As Papa C. would say... Lah Me!!

bob P

Unless the lines are totally FUBARed, you have to go with what the line says, correct? I don't think it would make sense to call what the REAL line would be if it were done correctly...both teams would be guessing at slow rollers down either line.

If lines are bad, I'll address it at the plate conference. Either by saying - guys, these lines are bad in places, but we're calling the LINE... or by saying - guys, these lines are unplayable - we're going to have to use our best judgement and call based on where the lines SHOULD have been.

But address it, to avoid problems like the one mentioned up above.

PWL,

Well....that's different! Never mind.

It's just that when you said...

I thought you meant he had actually fielded the ball while it was "right over the bag".

I agree that it can be difficult to convey all the nuances of a play with a typed description.

JM