What's the Call? Base on Balls
 

Had this one today. Catcher is batter, draws BOB, heads to first and as he is approaching first the coach at third base box yells across diamond for a certain player to run as courtesy/speed up runner. So the batter-runner turns and heads toward dugout but does not enter, takes his helmet off at doorway to dugout while courtesy runner essentially blocks batter-runner from entering dugout and they bump in to each other. Opposing head coach starts yelling that batter-runner is out as he abandoned first. Base umpire signals out then reverses after asking if batter-runner entered dugout and plate umpire signals that he did not and that it was essentially a dead ball due to BOB. Defensive coach goes semi-ballistic and both coaches argue with plate umpire resulting in no ejections, batter-runner putting helmet back on and touching first followed by time-out and courtesy runner taking his place on first. Was this the right call-NFHS game.

Any comments? Suggestions. Yes a messed up situation but it worked out as defensive team wound up winning big.

This is not abandonement. Abandonement is for runners who have reached 1B and abandon a following base. This is desertion. Desertion is for a runner who does not touch 1B and instead "progresses a reasonable distance toward his dugout or defensive position, and indicates no intent to reassert his status as a runner has abandoned hsi effor to run the bases. The cause of his actions (e.g., ignorance or apathy) is irrelevant." Call him out.

Third base coach, and the players will learn a lesson on desertion and and it should never happen again.

Batter runner never entered the dugout, therefore no abandonment.
Essentially a dead ball? Only dead if time was called by an umpire
for the purpose of entering courtesy runner. If time was not called,
why did the defense not simply tag the runner while he was off
of the base? It is the offense's responsibility to know whether time
has been granted before replacing a runner.:eek:

Illegal Contact
 

"courtesy runner essentially blocks batter-runner from entering dugout and they bump in to each other."

The ball is live until the baserunner reaches first base and an umpire signals time to allow the substitution. Once baserunner is headed for the dugout, the defense may tag him OUT before he returns to first base.

The courtesy runner never properly entered the ballgame. Call the baserunner OUT on the interference at the dugout entrance. A coach or teammate is not allowed to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-UP and entered DBT by mistake.

DG gave you a combination of the ruling by two definitive resources. I don't believe that Evans directly address's desertion, but he does address abandonment. That's where the wording "progresses a reasonable distance" came from. The J/R is much more clear on how to handle desertion. If you want to start coaching players, even at the "subvarsity" level how to legally run the bases, go for it. It's not something I would do though, ever.


J/R

By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.


I think SA hit on a good point. While I don't think we can call this interference, I do think we should possibly issue a bench warning for the CR coming out of the dugout on a live ball. Just a thought.


Tim.

The batter-runner can not be tagged out before reaching 1B on a BOB. There is no interference. Please quote the rule by which "a coach or teammate is not allowd to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-up and entered DBT my mistake."

This is a simple case of desertion and the BU made the right call.

I wasn't clear as to whether the batter-runner actually made
it to the bag, so I guess i just ASSummed that he did. If he did not,
I agree with the desertion theory.

Another good point to discuss
 

FED rules: Can the defense tag the runner after passing first on a BOB award? Yes

"The batter-runner can not be tagged out before reaching 1B on a BOB."

I agree with both of these statements but these are not the issue at hand.

"Please quote the rule by which "a coach or teammate is not allowed to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-up and entered DBT my mistake."

I thought that it was interference. Can a baserunner run into his basecoach and scramble to base safely? Maybe. Can the basecoach grab a baserunner in DBT and push him back toward first? NO, he may not assist a baserunner.

"This is a simple case of desertion and the BU made the right call."

Half right, OUT for desertion, and half wrong, the BU made the right call. I disagree with allowing the runner to reach first base after this scenario. Prior to abandonment, the defense may tag the runner out. Now we have desertion in this case once the runner reached DBT. But prior to the desertion, may the defense tag the runner out once he veers toward DBT? I would make that call. Do I wait for the defense to leave the field after him or appeal the AWOL at first base?

How? The ball is dead on a base on balls award, hence the runner may not be tagged out since the ball must be put into play. He may be tagged out (under FED rules) when he overruns first on a live-ball base on balls, but not on an award.

Correction
 

I made the mistake to think base ump made the right call with BOB.

I agree with Big Ump's explanation for desertion from J/R, OUT.

Can't go both ways
 

Please don't delete that SDS post any time soon. I am still trying to figure out just what your trying to say.

"draws BOB, heads to first and as he is approaching first the coach at third base box yells across diamond for a certain player to run as courtesy/speed up runner. So the batter-runner turns and heads toward dugout"

I read the original post to mean the batter did not reach 1B. I can not read the post any other way. The batter "draws a BOB", so the ball is LIVE. A base on balls is considered an award of 1B, but the ball is LIVE during the award. How many times has a defensive coach requested time while a batter walks to 1B and you say "not till he reaches 1b"? This was not an intentional walk in which case the ball is dead for the award.

The batter does not have to reach DBT to be declared out for desertion, just far enough for the umpire to believe he is deserting.

Excellent Analysis and suggestions
 

Thanks to all offering their analyses and ruling suggestions. I am encouraged by the depth and sincerity of the assistance offered by some of the great officiating minds on this site. (NOT B.S.-I mean it.)

I was the BU on this one. I am not trying to throw my partner under the bus on this, it was the 2d game of a very poorly played HS varsity DH. Both teams misplayed at least one ball per inning, swung at at least one bounced ball and one over their head per inning, at least one whine by at least one coach per inning. At least one wild pitch and/or passed ball per batter/per team/per inning. No less than ten dropped fly balls on the afternoon. No homeruns even though it was a former Babe Ruth league field that had been abandoned by the league for better facilities at another park. A six-hour baseball hell at a dirt infield park without real dugouts, just a concrete pad and wooden bench. Thank god the backstop was about 12 feet from home plate to prevent too many passed balls from getting too far away. There were houses with yards and dogs behind backstop so there were plenty of lost balls due to dog slobber and teeth marks. One team was arguing from the diamond back to their dugout for those in the dugout, coaches included, to not eat all the pizza. I am not making this up. You had to be there. Toughest $110 I've ever made.

Any base on balls is technically an award.

I would not, never, never, call someone out on this.

BOB out or safe?
 

I reversed my out call due to clarification that B/R never left playing field and entered dugout. Yes a bunch of messed up plays by two very poorly coached teams, in my opinion. Probably should have stuck with the out just to speed up the game. However, I think the B/R didn't deserve that as he was playing hard all day, unlike some of the other kids on his team. I am learning daily. I hope you all do too.

Lets look at the FED rules I found ...
 

FED 2-4-2
...A base on balls is an award of first base if a batter receives four such balls. <b>The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.</b>

I am having trouble figuring out why everyone thinks a BOB in FED is a dead ball ? I also can not find a reference to the ball becoming dead due to a batter receiving 4 pitched balls in section 5. (this was not an award of 1st)

FED 8-4-2 p.
<b>after at least touching first base</b>, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
NOTE: Any runner, <b>after reaching first base</b>, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

So, based on what I found in the rules, abandonment doesn't come into effect until after a runner has reached 1st base. I also couldn't find the term 'desertion' in reference to a runner giving up on running the bases.

Unless there is another rule out there that I have overlooked, an umpire doesn't really have a reason to call the batter out. This situation isn't really covered in the rules. Should we just call time, and instruct the batter to go to first before he is replaced by the courtesy runner ? Go ahead and bang him out as a penalty to the offensive team for removing the defense's ability to put the runner out after he reached 1st (many teams throw down to 1st on a BOB in case the batter overruns, steps off the bag to take an immediate lead, or to thwart an attempt to break for second base with a runner on 3rd) ?

Nick:

I don't believe you'll find the term 'desertion' in any rule book. What you'll find is that the J/R covers this as being similar to abandonment. While the J/R was written to be used as a suplemental to OBR it is often used as a suplemental to FED as well. I don't know what Steve was thinking when he mentioned the ball was dead on a BOB. We all know that even though it's an award it's a live ball award.


J/R

By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.


Tim.

Rule 2-4-2 refers to a base on balls (non-intentional) as a live-ball award.

Rule 8-2-6: "A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns of overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right." (emphasis added)

Rule 8-4-2h EXCEPTIONS: "If a batter-runner safely touches first base and then overslides or overruns it, except on a base on balls, he may immediately return to first base without penalty, provided he did not attempt to run or feint to second." (emphasis added)

So, we are technically supposed to call the runner out when he overruns first base on a base on balls under FED rules.

As for OBR rules:

J/R says:

"(2) A base on balls:

A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Sequential runners are also awarded their advance base. The ball remains live and any runner (including the B-R) who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base, is out."

And of course, this is contradicted by the MLBUM:

"NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)"

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:

"A batter who is entitled to 1st base because of "four balls" being called may not overrun or overslide 1st base. This is an award which is administered while the ball is alive and in play. He is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out...6.08(a). His liability to be put out resumes once he touches the base."

I'm getting a headache....:rolleyes:

The dead ball I was referring to was on an intentional base on balls, as in "Mr. Umpire, put him on." "Time, go to first base."

In 8-1-1c a distinction is made between award and a fourth ball called, that is what I was referring to.

Besides, I thought only Smitty awarded first base on a base on balls. You know, "Ball four, take your base!!!":rolleyes:

Most of us do not "award" first base on the call of ball four, that is my point. Even though, as Rich pointed out, a walk is "technically" an award.

Nick,

I don't think anybody thinks a base on balls as a result of the batter receiving 4 pitched ball is a dead ball.

When people think award, they usually are thinking of the dumbed-down FED rule 2-4-3, which allows a team to just call for an intentional walk, without the 4 wide ones. This is what I was referring to.

Also, apparently it really is an award of 1st when 4 pitched balls are called.

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:


The MLBUM is the official MLB interpretation and is the one that counts.

In major league baseball, of course.

And for anyone else using OBR.

SDS was busy quoting J/R and JEA which are MLB based tomes and commenting on them contradicting each other. Merely pointing out that the MLBUM is the official ruling. That thereby trumps the others.

BTW, LL had it in writing before the MLBUM was published.

The other rulings were, in my mind, based on a "that isn't necessary so we'll not allow it" thought process rather than being rules based.

Since "everyone" doesn't have access to these books, you shouldn't say "everyone."

I didn't - I said "anyone" ;-)

Where in the rule on overrunning does it say "unless the batter became a runner on a base on balls"? It doesn't.

Did you see my edited version?

Yes. I find all this kind of silly, actually, but I have most people on ignore in other threads :)

Only if the defense tags him!

My 2004 edition says the opposite, and therefore agrees with the MLBUM.

"A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Runners forced to advance are also awarded their advance base. [7.04b] The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. [6.08a] [7.04b] However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."

What year J/R are you quoting from?

Aren't we missing something here? CR-to-be was in the dugout, and physically assisted BR while BR was still a live runner during a live ball. "Prevented him from entering the dugout, as they bumped". Sounds pretty much like physically assisting too. I have this BR out.

You might be simply omitting to say that BR is liable to be tagged out if he overruns 1B. He does have to be tagged.

Or, you might be misinterpreting the FED rule. The rule says that BR may overrun 1B without penalty except on a BB - it does not follow that if he overruns 1B on a BB then there must be a penalty (such as calling him out).

As with any awarded base, the runner is protected up to, but not past, the awarded base, and if the ball is live and in play he may advance at his own risk. What's unusual about a walk is that the ball is alive during and after the award.

I'm not saying that you made this mistake, only that this is one possible interpretation of what you actually wrote, and it gets the rule wrong.

My 2002 Edition says the same as above. As the MLBUM is also a 2002 document, perhaps J/R added the last sentence after reading the MLBUM.

MLBUM does not use the word desertion, but gives examples of a B-R who goes to the dugout following a 3rd strike not caught. Reaching the dugout steps is considered the correct distance.

J/R uses the words "reasonable distance" under the desertion discussion.

A contradiction means there is a difference in interpretation. The contradiction appears to be the distance required to call the out, "reasonable distance" vs. "dugout steps".

Neither mentions a B-R who walks and does not touch 1B, but instead goes to the dugout steps to exchange helmet with a CR, most likely because this never happens in MLB, or any other level, except in this one example we are discussing. And I have never seen this happen. The B-R ALWAYS goes to 1b, stands on the base, and even after time is called and he can go to the dugout he stands there until the CR arrives.

So this is indeed a unique situation, and I would indeed call the B-R out for going to the dugout steps instead of going to 1B like he is supposed to. You would not and I respect your thoughts on that.

I also don't expect to ever have to apply this ruling because I have yet to see it happen.

Nope, Nope, Nope !
 

This just means they are not PROTECTED back to the base. They are in jeopardy of being put out by a tag, but not immediately called out just because they over-ran or over-slid 1st.

OK, but the OP clearly stated that it was a pitched BOB and not an award. And although it technically is an award, it is a live ball award. I just wanted to make sure that got covered for those who are not quite as up on the rules as others may be.

Unfortunately, a very old one. Early 90's edition. I guess they changed their minds about it.:eek:

Yes, but in FED only. In OBR, they may overrun the base without jeopardy of being put out by a tag according to rules and apparently all authoritative opinions.

Just so we are clear:

In FED, you may overrun 1st base on a walk, but they can tag your butt out.

In OBR, you may overrun 1st base on a walk, but they cannot tag your butt out.

That is the difference in a nut shell.

Rich (F) said he would never call the runner out (if he was tagged, I figured he meant) after overrunning 1st base after a base on balls award. I then figured he meant on a dead ball award, not after the live-ball "award" of a 4th ball delivered. A dead ball award is when the defense decides they want an automatic walk issued, and "Time" is called to make the award. But the runner is out if he overruns and is tagged on a live-ball walk.

Yes, what I omitted was that the runner had to be tagged, which I thought was a given. I was also illustrating that FED and OBR once again differ on how to rule on the same play.

Well, of course. This isn't South Carolina!!!:D