Question on Awards with Tagging up
 

I couldn't find this covered anywhere, so I can only assume, but I want to KNOW!

Man on 1st, less than 2 outs. Fly ball to the outfielder, caught. He throws behind R1 to try to double him off. The throw goes into dead ball territory. 2 base award.

Now, do you grant R1 a retouch at 1st as his first base and then award second? Or do you award straight to third and leave it up to him to retouch, for free. Casebook/rules references (couldn't find anything in rules) would be perferred if you have them (I don't own anything but this year's casebook, as I am a new umpire).

Thanks.

TussAgee11,

The award in this case is two bases from his "original" or TOP base - so, you award him 3B. He is still required to retouch 1B prior to going to his awarded base (and 2B on the way to 3B) or is he subject to a properly constituted appeal. You do NOT inform him of the fact that he is still required to retouch 1B.

JM

From the original post it is apparent that the runner left early. The dead ball does not change that.

Sorry about not being more clear.

The runner never retouched the base prior to the ball leaving play. He simply was off with the pitch, and would have been doubled up with a good throw.

I was curious if one of his awards was his retouch, but I think I've had that quesiton answered. Thanks gang.

Garth,

I apologize for bothering you with this, but do you know who it was that said, "You only get one chance to make a first impression." ? I thought that being a teacher you might know.

Thanks.

JM

Many people have said it. Who said it first is a mystery that may never be solved. Various people have been credited including Winston Churchill and Dale Carnegie. There is a claim that it is an ancient Arabian proverb.

We do know that Mark Twain wrote a variation in the 1800's: "You never get a second chance to make a good first impression." Until I see it writing by another author and dated prior to Twain, he gets my nod.

Garth,

Thanks. Mr. Clemens works for me too.

JM

No you didn't. It's 2 bases from the Time of Throw (TOT) not Time of Pitch (TOP), in this situation. TOP is when F1 delivers the pitch and TOT is when the fielder throws the ball in. Also, it's not 2 bases from the last entitled base, it's 2 bases from the last base legally acquired prior to the throw.

The runner has to re-touch the base too.

To extend this, if the runner on 1st had passed SECOND base when this ball was uncorked toward first, and then into DBT, the runner gets HOME (and it's up to him to know he has to go retouch). Two bases from TIME OF THROW.

Just for the sake of discussion let me ask these questions.

Since a missed base or failure to tag up is an appeal how could you justify awarding 3B and not home in this situation? Wouldn't your base award indicate that the runner didn't tag up? Especially since the offensive coach would probably ask you why his player didn't get 2 bases from 2B.

If the failure to tag up isn't appealed then it didn't happen right?

I take it you're not familiar with the "last time by" concept.

Since when did the defense start putting the ball back into play?

You cannot call the runner out for failure to properly tag. The defense is responsible for making a proper appeal. If they don't. Then your right, it didn't happen.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so then the award should have been to home until a proper appeal.


Tim.

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

The confusion would be whether or not giving the two base award from first base would tip the defense off that they have an appeal. We all know he would be out on appeal if he fails to re-touch, but what if the defense doesn't appeal? He's considered to have obtained his advance base as soon as he reaches it until properly appealed.


Tim.

Not correct. Runner HAS legally obtained 2nd base - was there an illegal act here? No, just bad baserunning... not ILLEGAL baserunning.

I think the confusion is my fault, as there are two plays here.

If the runner was between 1st and 2nd when the OF threw the ball, as in the OP, the award is 3rd base. If the runner was on 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd when the OF threw the ball, as in my corollary, the award is home. In either case, the runner can retouch any bases left early or missed bases, but we are not to do anything to tip anyone off that there was a base that needs to be retouched.

Instead of just saying this is flat wrong, I'll ask this:

R1 leaves first base just a hair early on a fly ball to DEEP RF. F9 throws to F8. After R1 rounds 2nd base, F8 uncorks the ball over the fence, A) over third base, or B) over 1st base. What do you award? Consider that at this point you may or may not know that the defense plans on appealing at first base.

But isn't the action of the outfielder throwing behind R1 in an attempt to double him off let us know that the defense is fully aware that the appeal is on. Furthermore, would you allow a second appeal at the same base on the same runner if the defense err's in its initial appeal attempt?

Durham, the point is really that it doesn't matter if the defense is, or isn't, aware of a possible appeal. It's two bases from the last base (2nd base in this case) obtained by the runner.

My response was in line with Mike's. I would say that just because they threw behind the runner they have yet to make an unmistakeable appeal. So, if R1 had reached or had passed second base before TOT. I would award home and wait for a proper appeal. He has legally obtained second until properly appealed. I see your point that this could have been considered an erred appeal though which would disallow a second appeal.


Tim.

It's okay mccrowder, I'll say it:

PWL, YOU ARE FLAT-OUT WRONG!

The award is from the bases occupied at the time of the wild throw, which was second base. The rule - 7.05(g) - makes no mention of legally or illegally obtained bases. Same with FED, rule 8-3-3c. Nothing requiring legally obtaining a base is remotely mentioned.

Please don't make up rules that don't exist.:rolleyes:

And what rule is that?

Lets say he just stands on second, and the defense never appeals. Does he still not legally occupy second. His position is legally his until appealed.

If there is a casebook or rule against this please post PWL. For me common sense in this situation told be one of his rewards was a retouch at 1st. But I inquired about the rule and was told my common sense was wrong by rule. Perhaps yours is too.

PWL, I see you completely ignored my question. Because you couldn't possibly have an answer that is consistent with your incorrect ruling and still makes sense.

The book makes no mention of the umpire's need to determine whether bases were attained legally or illegally, nor does it mention the need to "erase" part of a base award if a retouch is required.

This has come up in clinics before and unanimously the answer is that the player is simply (simple because it says nearly exactly this in the book) awarded 2 bases from WHERE HE IS at the time of the throw.

Let's give it another hypothetical that illustrates your solution as wrong. R1 starts on first, tags legally, passes 2nd base, coach is then yelling BACK BACK, so he returns, missing 2nd, but is between 1st and 2nd when F9 throws the ball out of play. The last "legally acquired base" in your vernacular (not to be found in a rulebook), is SECOND base - but he's between 1st and 2nd at TOT. The proper award is 3rd base. You would award home by your logic. Clearly this is also wrong.

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

Beautiful work. Thanks.

Also, NAPBL 3.11 Play 2: (paraphrased) R1, Leaves on pitch; fly ball caught; is between 2nd and 3rd when throw to frist goes out of play. Ruling: Runner is awarded third (two bases from his original base). However, while the ball is dead, he must return to and touch first. (additional parts of the ruling deleted)

If you're going to use the case book you should include the situation:

8.2.5 Situation A

With R1 on first and no outs, B2 hits a long fly ball over the head of F8. R1 thinks the ball will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However, F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first base, but the ball goes into dead-ball territory. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third base when the ball becomes dead.

Ruling (in part): A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.

Now assuming, as you did, that the throw to 1B (that went into dead-ball territory) was an appeal attempt:

What becomes of the defenses right to appeal?
Is the defense allowed to appeal again even though the first appeal attempt went into dead-ball territory?

How would you know for sure that the throw that went between 1B & 2B wasn’t an attempt to throw to 2B for a tag on the runner or to prevent him from advancing? If that were true and the runner was standing on 2B at the TOT (and no apparent appeal had been made at that time) would you still only award the runner 3B? And if the appeal isn't made?

Who says that if the throw was an attempt to appeal it wasn't properly made and the runner gets 3B?

So aren’t these discussions fun?

The defense is still allowed to appeal.

1) It was continuous action.
2) Even if it wasn't, throwing the ball out of play does not stop the defense's right to appeal in FED.


By the verbal cues of the defense, including the coaches, and by the actions of the offensive player and coaches (are they yelling "get back" or are they saying "hold at second.")

If it's not an appeal, award home.

Bob,

You know too much about the rules :-)

I was enjoying the banter between some of the other "experts" on the board and then you come along and answer my questions. I was looking forward to the discussion regarding my addition to the original situation.

Folks, some clarification here.

From the MLBUM (verbatim, emphasis original)...

As you can see, PWL, the initial award is, indeed, home. This is also the same ruling in NCAA.


--Randy

Keep this in mind when figuring out TOT and TOP: It is always TOT when an outfielder is the one throwing the ball, such as the play referenced in this thread.

TOT or TOP refers to when the throw was released from the fielder's hands. The exception would be on certain deflections or certain intentional acts by a fielder.

All right, children. Enough is enough. Let's cut the immature crap. Leave the childish name-calling and insults to the players. Personally, I'm getting sick of reading this.

Umpires should be above this.

This is the frickin' Internet, Steve; and BTW, I've had plenty of lies told about me in cyberspace. I just ignore them. They're not worth my time, no matter how despicable they are.

With all due respect, Steve, this thread isn't about the little pissing contest between you and PWL. Perhaps you can take it elsewhere.

With all due respect, UMP25, we all tried to help PWL learn something, to which he turned it into a personal attack. I do not start personal attacks, but I don't shy away from conflicts which others start.

I want people out here in "cyberspace" to know when someone is telling lies about me.

As far as this thread goes, it has apparently outlived its usefullness. The question has been answered, even though certain people still may not understand it.

Steve, don't feed the troll.

So we are saying that in FED the player gets awards based off the TOP? That can't be right. A double to the outfield, runner on first, outfielder throws the ball in and it goes out of play, and I'm giving that runner on first 3rd even though he may have been between 2nd and 3rd at the time of the throw?

Then we look at some other rule books, and we can agree that in the above situation he gets home?

Sounds like just another difference of rulebooks to me.

And guys, take this pissing contest elsewhere. This thread and forum is to valuable for that stuff. Thanks.

I don't have the NFHS book handy, so I'll defer to someone who does at the moment, like Bob J. mentioned earlier. NCAA and OBR I tend to know like the back of my hand, so it's easier to explain this play under those rules. Plus, NCAA and OBR are the same on most of their rules, whereas NFHS is different, to say the least.

This morning alone, I heard from two FED umps who gave me radically different answers to what the ruling would be under NFHS. One of these gentlemen is an assignor, but his answer seems way off.

It's the same. 2 bases from the position of the runners at the Time Of The Throw. There is no mention of "legally attained bases" or any such wording in any code of rules concerning a ball being thrown out of play. The runner, having acquired 2nd base at the Time Of The Throw, is awarded home base. It is his responsibility to retouch any missed base(s). If he does not retouch, he may be called out upon proper appeal. This is a recording......

EDIT---PWL, this was supposed to go before yours...

but....a runner cannot return to a base to re-touch if he has already reached a succeeding base at the time the ball went dead... Fed 5.2.2.b & 8.2.5

And fed casebook 8.2.5 Sitch A
R1 on first, no outs, B2 hits long fly ball over head of F8. R1 thinks it will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first but the ball goes into DBT. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third when the ball goes dead.

RULING : A runner may not return to a base that he left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or if he advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball went dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out, If no proper appeal, is made by the defense, R1 will be awarded third base.

What confuses me is...and hopefully others....

If no appeal, why give him only third if he had reached second (legally or illegally) at TIME OF THROW.

It would make more sense if we had either OUT on appeal or HOME on award.

And what is the proper mechanic for denying a runner to return to a base after the ball has gone dead?

"Hey buddy, I know you left early but you can't go back now. I'm awarding you this base, but if they appeal, you're OUT."

Yes, my mistake. Once the runner touched 2nd base, it is too late for him to retouch 1st. He is awarded home, and is subject to being called out on appeal. So he is better off not trying to return and just keep going home and hope the defense didn't see the missed base. FED 8-2-5 and OBR 7.10 (b) (2) and interpretation Play (a).

The award is still 2 bases from his position, which was 2nd base.

This is on a batted ball which has been caught. This is not the same as the runner missing the base when advancing. The award is from his position at the time of the throw.

Two Schools of Thought....
 

Gentlemen,

An interesting discussion (other than all the "noise"). I believe there are (at least) two schools of thought on the proper ruling in regards to the original situation posed in this thread - and that's just under OBR. FED adds its own unique twist to the situation.

Since, in the original situation posed by TussAgee11, the throw which went out of play was made by an outfielder on a ball hit to the outfield, it is "black letter law" (in both FED and OBR) that the award of two bases is a "Time of Throw" (TOT) award.

So, why on earth did I say...

in my initial post on this thread?

Well, primarily because of the following passage from J/R under the discussion of TOT Award(s) (<i>my emphasis</i>):

Now, this interpretation from J/R seems quite consistent with the NAPBL ruling paraphrased by Bob Jenkins (post #35 on this thread) while it is materially different from the MLBUM ruling quoted by UMP25 (post #42).

So what is the proper ruling? In the BRD, Carl endorses the J/R ruling and recommends "disavowal" of the MLBUM ruling. He goes on to add the following note:

This makes eminent sense to me. After all, even under the MLBUM ruling, if the runner does go back and retouch his base, the origin of the award magically becomes his "original" or TOP base. If he doesn't, he's going to be liable to an appeal. If he fails to retouch and the defense doesn't appeal, they really ought to learn the game a little better.

Now, if the infraction is <b>not</b> "obvious", the MLBUM ruling makes sense to me.

A couple of other points that came up in the discussion...

I believe TussAgee11's initial question was whether or not the runner's "retouch" base counted as one of the two bases awarded. It does not & I'm pretty sure he figured that out.

It was suggested that the origin of the award was based on the last <b>legally</b> acquired base. There is nothing to support such a notion in the rules or any recognized interpretation manual; there is quite a bit to support the principle that a runner who has reached/passed a base is considered to have acquired it legally until/unless the defense properly appeals.

The question was raised as to whether the defense would lose their chance for a subsequent appeal if the throw which went out of play was construed to be part of an unmistakeable but ill-fated attempt at a continuous action appeal of the runner's failure to retouch. After all, they attempted an appeal and "erred" by throwing the ball out of play. They have not and will still have the opportunity to appeal (assuming the runner does not correct his infraction while the ball is dead) when the ball is again made live.

The FED ruling on the play is materially different from the OBR ruling in the situation where the runner liable for appeal on his failure to retouch has reached/passed a succeeding base and is unable to return past that base before the ball becomes dead. In FED, the runner cannot correct his failure to retouch in this case and is liable to be called out on appeal even if he goes back and retouches while the ball is dead.

Unless the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play in order to prevent the runner from retouching and the runner was attempting to return. Then his award is two bases beyond his TOP base.

JM

Somehow I was under the false impression, due to the runner passing 2nd base I believe, that this was not a caught ball. This whole time I have been arguing about an advancing runner on an uncaught ball thrown out of play.

Now that I read the original situation properly, the award should be 2 bases from the time of the pitch. 8-3-5b and 5-1-1g(3).

The runner, seeing that the ball was caught, can then retreat, retouch 2nd base and then go retouch 1st, as long as he touches 2nd before the ball goes out of play. Once the ball is dead, he can no longer touch 2nd before returning to first. Chances are most runners will have retouched 2nd long before the ball goes out of play.

PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim.:)

Not quite.

If the runner is between 2nd and 3rd at the time the ball ends up in DBT he can return to 1st to correct his leaving early error as long as he does not advance to and touch 3rd base after the ball is dead.

And it's two bases from the time of the throw. Given that the ball is a caught fly this is usually going to be the same as TOP.

Must Retouch!
 

The original thread discussed a CAUGHT FLY BALL. Any ballplayer (8 years or older) knows that a baserunner must (return and) RETOUCH after a caught fly ball. That means most teams will throw the ball back to first base and appeal the obvious infraction. Sometimes, fielders may try to make a tag play on the runner at or between bases. :(

If baserunner is caught between 2nd and 3rd when the ball enters DBT, what is he suppose to do; advance to third, stop at second or continue to first? If he stops at second or advances to third, then he might as well be hung out to dry on a CFB. He better get back to first and he better hope that the defense ignores his position between 2nd and 3rd when the ball entered DBT. Once he reaches first, he would be out on immediate appeal (past 2nd base) or he would be awarded TWO bases if no appeal is made. That TWO base award should clue the defense to appeal the obvious before the NEXT pitch. :o

Its one thing not to appeal a missed base; but its another thing to ignore a CAUGHT FLY BALL. A CFB retouch beats a DBT award everytime. Why would I award HOME team home on a ball that enters DBT afterward,do I ignore the CATCH too?:mad:

Hmmm, Diving?
 

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"Baby, I'm gonna sine yo' pitty on the runny kine!....Pootie Tang "
What does that mean?
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"PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim."
Doesn't sound any better than Pootie Tang.
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Somehow I may be under the false impression, too. Can you help get it off me?

April Fools Day
 

Some people know more about FALLING fastballs than catching FLIES.

Apparently, tagging UP is something they often FAIL to consider.

:cool:

April Fools right ???

Why should April make a difference?


Tim.