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David Emerling Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:01am

Delay of game (rebuttal article)
 
I assume, for technical reasons, Carl did not include a videoclip in the article I wrote regarding my rebuttal to his Delay of Game article.

Here is the portion of my article that was edited out:<HR>

Videoclips


Other than the lengthy rituals already discussed, I challenge the notion that having both feet out of the batter's box significantly impacts the progress of the game. I do not think I'm being "disingenuous" in claiming this. After reading Carl's article, I had already made up my mind to write a rebuttal. But first, I had to attend my twin sons' JV high school game. I took my digital camera with a mission – not only to watch my sons play, but to pay particularly close attention to the batters and their mannerisms at the plate. I'll let the reader be the judge as to whether any of these batters warranted an admonishment from the umpire. If so, how much time would that take?

All of the batters in these five clips exit the batter's box after taking a pitch without any of the listed exceptions in FED 7-3-1 applying. Each clip represents a different at-bat. The behavior of these batters typified what I saw throughout the game. They were not unique in any way. The first clip provides the lengthiest "delay" but that is completely due to the coach's lengthy signalling. Play cannot commence until that process is over, whether the batter has one or two feet out of the batter's box. When the coach completes the signals, the batter promptly steps into the box and is ready. It is hard to imagine that this has delayed the game.

Watch the catcher in many of these clips. He's seldom ready any sooner than the batter.

Notice the home plate umpire doesn't seem to be bothered by it all. I'm guessing he has bigger fish to fry. I couldn't agree more.

Here's the link to the videoclip: http://emerling22.com/baseball_videos/delay.avi

It's slightly over 7 megs, so you dial-up people will have to be patient.
<HR>

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Okblu Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:20am

I agree with you David. This happens all the time in Okla. I've never had a problem with batters leaving the box to get signals from the coach as long as they return quickly. I have had to call batters back though(warning), and usually this takes care of the screwing around.:D

David Emerling Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okblu
I agree with you David. This happens all the time in Okla. I've never had a problem with batters leaving the box to get signals from the coach as long as they return quickly. I have had to call batters back though(warning), and usually this takes care of the screwing around.:D

Exactly!

The type of activity you see in that video, to me, is completely normal.

I have no problem with a batter completely stepping out to get his signals as long as he promptly returns to the batter's box without screwing around.

I don't even mind a practice swing or two as long as the pitcher and catcher are still not ready.

You know what wastes <i>more</i> time in this whole process? It's not the batter. When the batter is ready, the catcher stares over at his dugout while the coach touches every part of his face for the next 10-seconds. Look at the catcher in the videoclip, when it seems the batter is holding up the process you'll also notice that the catcher isn't ready himself. He's usually staring at the dugout.

To me FED 7-3-1 is nothing more than a hammer in the umpire's toolbox. It's nice to know it's there if you need it. But not every job needs a hammer.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Rich Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling
I assume, for technical reasons, Carl did not include a videoclip in the article I wrote regarding my rebuttal to his Delay of Game article.

Here is the portion of my article that was edited out:<HR>

Videoclips


Other than the lengthy rituals already discussed, I challenge the notion that having both feet out of the batter's box significantly impacts the progress of the game. I do not think I'm being "disingenuous" in claiming this. After reading Carl's article, I had already made up my mind to write a rebuttal. But first, I had to attend my twin sons' JV high school game. I took my digital camera with a mission – not only to watch my sons play, but to pay particularly close attention to the batters and their mannerisms at the plate. I'll let the reader be the judge as to whether any of these batters warranted an admonishment from the umpire. If so, how much time would that take?

All of the batters in these five clips exit the batter's box after taking a pitch without any of the listed exceptions in FED 7-3-1 applying. Each clip represents a different at-bat. The behavior of these batters typified what I saw throughout the game. They were not unique in any way. The first clip provides the lengthiest "delay" but that is completely due to the coach's lengthy signalling. Play cannot commence until that process is over, whether the batter has one or two feet out of the batter's box. When the coach completes the signals, the batter promptly steps into the box and is ready. It is hard to imagine that this has delayed the game.

Watch the catcher in many of these clips. He's seldom ready any sooner than the batter.

Notice the home plate umpire doesn't seem to be bothered by it all. I'm guessing he has bigger fish to fry. I couldn't agree more.

Here's the link to the videoclip: http://emerling22.com/baseball_videos/delay.avi

It's slightly over 7 megs, so you dial-up people will have to be patient.
<HR>

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Wasn't the last pitch in the dirt?

I'm glad they put umpire discretion back into the directed strike. It meant I didn't have to deal with it much anymore. I didn't have to worry about coaches looking for it every time someone stepped out of the box.

David Emerling Sat Mar 25, 2006 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
Wasn't the last pitch in the dirt?

I'm glad they put umpire discretion back into the directed strike. It meant I didn't have to deal with it much anymore. I didn't have to worry about coaches looking for it every time someone stepped out of the box.

The way the rule reads, it is the umpire's discretion as to whether the act of being completely out of the batter's box delayed the game - thus warranting a strike.

However, the rule still directs that the batter keep one foot in the batter's box unless one of the listed exceptions apply. It is this <i>latter</i> point that, technically, gives the umpire no discretion.

The debate has two sides:

1. There are those who want to enforce this rule such that EVERY BATTER must keep one foot in the batter's box unless one of the exceptions apply. When they fail to comply, the umpire promptly directs the batter to keep one foot in the box.

The other side of the debate.

2. Yeah ... yeah .... yeah. But who really cares unless the batter is delaying the game? Why nag the batters? This is especially true when all the batter is really doing is getting the sign from the 3rd base coach. If he promptly takes his position in the batter's box, I say, "Big deal." It's not even worth the discussion.

Once you start enforcing this rule, I don't see how you can stop. Are you going to allow <i>some</i> batters to step out without an admonishment while others get an admonishment to get one foot back in the box? Now you're inconsistent - which makes it look like you may be harassing one team more than the other.

My method is consistent ... more natural ... less obstrusive ... and even though it is not "letter of the law", nobody cares or notices. Strictly enforcing the rule generally causes <i>everybody</i> to care and notice. And, to what end? To speed up the game? I think not.

In my opinion, an umpire's attention and efforts are better directed toward more substantive matters in the game.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

thumpferee Sat Mar 25, 2006 02:15pm

I actually had a V coach yell at his batter yesterday who stepped out of the box to take signs, saying, "What are you doing, keep one foot in the box".

And it was a swinging strike.

I personally don't understand why batters want to step out so much. When I played, it took me a couple of @ bats to dig out a nice comfortable hole to plant my back foot in. I kept my back foot planted as much as I could and opened up to get my signs.

David Emerling Sat Mar 25, 2006 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee
I actually had a V coach yell at his batter yesterday who stepped out of the box to take signs, saying, "What are you doing, keep one foot in the box".

And it was a swinging strike.

I personally don't understand why batters want to step out so much. When I played, it took me a couple of @ bats to dig out a nice comfortable hole to plant my back foot in. I kept my back foot planted as much as I could and opened up to get my signs.

That's great! I say let the <b>coach</b> do all the nagging, if that's what he wants to do.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

PeteBooth Mon Mar 27, 2006 01:58pm

To me FED 7-3-1 is nothing more than a hammer in the umpire's toolbox. It's nice to know it's there if you need it. But not every job needs a hammer.

David I disagree. I like the ruling compared to that of OBR which has no ruling, other than if a batter refuses to come to bat.

When I first see batter's COMPLETELY out of the box is when I warn, meaning inning number one, instructing them as the rule states to keep one foot in the box.

Why!

it has ben my experience, that the closer the game, B1 and the coach will take full advantage if you do not enforce the rule. As the game tightens up, B1 will start to STARE more at the coach, etc. and the game will be delayed.

Also, let's assume this. You are allowing batters to step completely out of the box. One team doesn't delay the game but the other team does.

Now what! If you are allowing one team to do it, you cannot all of a sudden penalize the other team.

Remember the rule is for BOTH teams. They do not pay us by the hour. Move the game along in accordance with the rules.

Pete Booth

David Emerling Mon Mar 27, 2006 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth
To me FED 7-3-1 is nothing more than a hammer in the umpire's toolbox. It's nice to know it's there if you need it. But not every job needs a hammer.

David I disagree.

Every job <i>does</i> need a hammer? :)

Quote:

I like the ruling compared to that of OBR which has no ruling, other than if a batter refuses to come to bat.

When I first see batter's COMPLETELY out of the box is when I warn, meaning inning number one, instructing them as the rule states to keep one foot in the box.
Nag! :)

Quote:

Why!

it has ben my experience, that the closer the game, B1 and the coach will take full advantage if you do not enforce the rule. As the game tightens up, B1 will start to STARE more at the coach, etc. and the game will be delayed.
I've never seen a batter remain out of the batter's box simply because "the game tightens up."

The reason they are generally out of the batter's box is because the coach is giving a lengthy set of signals ... which becomes more typical as a game "tightens up."

Pete, what do you do or say when a batter <i>does</i> keep one foot in the batter's box and the coach goes through a lengthy set of signals?

I already know your answer, "Nothing!"

You can't really control that. It's part of the game.

So, what substantive difference does it make whether he gets the signals with one foot in or completely out of the batter's box - as long as he is promptly ready at the end of the signal giving?

Quote:

Also, let's assume this. You are allowing batters to step completely out of the box. One team doesn't delay the game but the other team does.
Stop!

I have already said that I don't mention it <i><b>unless</b></i> I think it is needlessly delaying the game. I don't think the batter getting his signals from the 3rd base coach is considered delaying the game.

I do not permit lengthy rituals.

Quote:

Now what! If you are allowing one team to do it, you cannot all of a sudden penalize the other team.
I would not penalize either team unless a particular batter was both flagrant and uncooperative.

I would not enforce this penalty until it became flagrant. And I can assure you, by the time I enforce it, even the concession stand hot dog vendor will be thinking, "Thank God!"

Quote:

Remember the rule is for BOTH teams. They do not pay us by the hour. Move the game along in accordance with the rules.
And I would apply my standard equally for BOTH teams.

So, you saw the video - right? Did you think those batters were delaying the game?

* * *

I don't mean to argue with you. We just have a simple philosophical disagreement as to the importance of this rule and how it is to be administered. It's no big deal - we can agree to disagree.

As you can see, the umpire in the video is not invoking this rule. Nobody notices ... nobody cares ... the game moves along ... everybody is happy. I say, "Why look for areas of conflict where there seems to be no need?"

Would you accept this: If <i>you</i> were to call a game in <i>this</i> area (Memphis), there is a good chance your style would not be well received considering how games have been traditionally called here for many years?

If your answer is, "Yes," then you have an understanding of my point of view.

Again, I don't permit the batters to needlessly delay game. I just don't see how <i>every</i> batter who is completely out of the batter's box is necessarily delaying the game.

Pete, is there <i>any</i> administrative rule that you, personally, tend to let slide unless it becomes a problem?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

WhatWuzThatBlue Mon Mar 27, 2006 06:25pm

If the player or coach wants to delay the game before Daylight Savings Time is in effect, that's alright by me. It's cold and I get to go home early.

I was also amazed at the amount of signs a JV coach finds necessary.

DG Mon Mar 27, 2006 09:02pm

I counted about 15 seconds of wasted time in these 5 clips. If this is typical for 5 pitches then it is 3 seconds per pitch times 200 pitches = 10 minutes, just WASTED...

JRutledge Mon Mar 27, 2006 09:27pm

This is the reason games take a long time. I just tell the kid to stay in the box and they stay in the box. There is no reason for batters to step completely out of the box to take a sign. I remember I told people that many of my games took less than 2 hours and some did not believe me. It is stuff like this that keeps the games long. You do not have to be an *** about it, just tell the kids to stay in the box and they will listen.

Do not get me started about activity in between innings. :rolleyes:

Peace

PeteBooth Mon Mar 27, 2006 09:36pm

Pete, is there <i>any</i> administrative rule that you, personally, tend to let slide unless it becomes a problem?

David I do not consider rule 7-3-5 to be an administrative type rule. It is there to speed up the game. IMO, the problem is that the rule is not enforced unilaterally as evidenced by your post.

IMO a brand new post can be started called Umpire or Umpire Association consistency. If the rule is enforced from day one by ALL umpires within a given association there will be no problem.

IMO, Rule 7-3-5 reminds me of the old FED rule regarding the shoulder turn. Prior to last year's change, in FED F1 could not check the runner as he could do in an OBR game. How many umpires enforced that rule? Answer it varied from region to region and umpire to umpire which was probably a main reason for the change. Even MLB is talking about adopting the FED ruling about the batter's box. MLB is tired of seeing Jeter/Nomar take an inordinate amount of time at the plate.

I am not a hard a** with this rule. I treat this rule the same way with regards to F1 not coming to a stop. If I notice F1 not coming to a stop, I will call TIME dust off the plate and tell F2 to talk to his F1. That's their warning - Preventative umpire. If they do not adhere from that point on then it's enforced.

The rule states a batter MUST have one foot in the box and there is a reason.

As far as your questions about what administrative rules I ignore. Basically the uniform rules (unless I have to), the 20 second rule for F1.

As stated, IMO rule 7-3-5 is not an admistartive typr ruling. The problem as with other type rules is that the rule is not enforced unilaterally which causes a problem.

Pete Booth

WhatWuzThatBlue Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:27pm

Last year, I ran into this issue again. Unpires in our area tend to ignore this during the regular season. Here come the playoffs and umpires who have never worked together ask if this should be called.

I tend to enforce the batters box issue, but not to speed things up. I don't like to have some snot nose seventeen year old take a called strike and then step out shaking his head and adjusting his gloves. Then the magic sign machine begins and his skipper tells him to ignore pitches like that. Great, two more and Junior is picking splinters out of his kiester.

I do take issue with the thought that keeping one foot in the box speeds up the game. That's BS - the signs still take just as long if Junior is straddling the box or bothe feet are just outside. Remember, if he swings he can take a walk, regroup and then start the signs. I've known many a batter that gets a series of signs, then asks for the coach to roll through them again. I've mumbled, "He just signalled to not let another good one go by."

How many layers are you wearing right now? I still have my winter pounds so I can get away with only three!

David Emerling Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWL
Are there any speed-up rules in girl's fast pitch softball? After every pitch, the batter will step out, look down at the base coach, take about five swings, step into the box with their hand up towards the umpire, and dig in for the pitch. They're worse than Nomar Garciaparra. Then after every out with no one on base, they pass the ball around, and gather in the pitcher's circle for group high five.

I see these control freak coaches start it at an early level and it seems to filter up into the high school ranks also. I have watched the NCAA Women's World Series on TV, and it sure moves faster than anything at the lower levels. Only thing that slows it down is the commercials.:cool:

Boy, you're right about this!

I just watched my daughter's HS fastpitch team play in several tournament games this weekend. There was this one team that went through all the exact rituals that you have mentioned.

Give me a break!

At one point, I thought they were having a séance in the infield. Every strikeout triggered a Mardi Gras celebration. I can't believe the PU tolerated it.

In my opinion, <i>these</i> are the type of needless delays that can ruin a game.

But this is NOT that type of activity that I'm referring in this discussion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
I do take issue with the thought that keeping one foot in the box speeds up the game. That's BS - the signs still take just as long if Junior is straddling the box or bothe feet are just outside. Remember, if he swings he can take a walk, regroup and then start the signs. I've known many a batter that gets a series of signs, then asks for the coach to roll through them again. I've mumbled, "He just signalled to not let another good one go by."

Exactly!

I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. When the coach is giving the signs; whether the batter has ONE FOOT out of the batter's box or TWO FEET out of the batter's box ... what difference does it really make?

The game is halted until the sign giving is over, one way or the other. As long as the batter promptly gets ready at the completion of the sign giving, what difference does it make?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG
I counted about 15 seconds of wasted time in these 5 clips. If this is typical for 5 pitches then it is 3 seconds per pitch times 200 pitches = 10 minutes, just WASTED...

I don't think you watched the video very closely.

You can't just start your stopwatch whenever the batter is out of the batter's box. That is not what constitutes a delay.

It is only a delay when everybody is waiting for the batter and he is doing nothing other than taking practice swings, adjusting his gloves, or writing a letter.

I don't consider the time spent out of the batter's box, getting the sign, as a delay. That time is going to be spent one way or the other - even if one foot is in the batter's box.

Look at the video again and ask yourself this, "Is the batter getting the sign from the 3rd base coach? If not, is the battery ready to proceed?"

After the batter takes a pitch, do you really think the pitcher is going to pitch the ball immediately after the catcher throws it back to him?

No way!

The catcher is going to get situated ... look over at the coach ... watch the coach touch his ear, nose, ear, chin, nose, chin, ear. Generally, before that process is over, the batter is already back in the batter's box.

Seriously? You look at those 5 clips and you are convinced that the game would proceed had the batter not exited the box? You're seeing something completely different than what I'm seeing.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth
David I do not consider rule 7-3-5 to be an administrative type rule. It is there to speed up the game. IMO, the problem is that the rule is not enforced unilaterally as evidenced by your post.

IMO a brand new post can be started called Umpire or Umpire Association consistency. If the rule is enforced from day one by ALL umpires within a given association there will be no problem.

IMO, Rule 7-3-5 reminds me of the old FED rule regarding the shoulder turn. Prior to last year's change, in FED F1 could not check the runner as he could do in an OBR game. How many umpires enforced that rule? Answer it varied from region to region and umpire to umpire which was probably a main reason for the change. Even MLB is talking about adopting the FED ruling about the batter's box. MLB is tired of seeing Jeter/Nomar take an inordinate amount of time at the plate.

I am not a hard a** with this rule. I treat this rule the same way with regards to F1 not coming to a stop. If I notice F1 not coming to a stop, I will call TIME dust off the plate and tell F2 to talk to his F1. That's their warning - Preventative umpire. If they do not adhere from that point on then it's enforced.

The rule states a batter MUST have one foot in the box and there is a reason.

As far as your questions about what administrative rules I ignore. Basically the uniform rules (unless I have to), the 20 second rule for F1.

As stated, IMO rule 7-3-5 is not an admistartive typr ruling. The problem as with other type rules is that the rule is not enforced unilaterally which causes a problem.

Pete Booth

I agree with you. If <i>everybody</i> enforced this rule ... it would probably be easier for everybody.

The problem is this; baseball isn't generally played in this manner. It's not what they see on TV ... it's not what they do in practice ... it's very counter instinctive.

Keep one foot in the batter's box at all times for many players just seems so awkward and unnatural - that's why they don't do it.

I'm sure if it became a HUGE emphasis item and every umpire strictly enforced it, the behavior would change over a period of time. But it all seems so pointless to me.

Oh, it's not so much a bad rule as it is a misguided rule. If FED wants to really speed up a game, I can think of so many <i>better</i> rules than this lemon.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

DG Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:22am

A batter who has one foot in the box gets his sign quicker than one out of the box. And a batter with one foot in the box does not take 2-3 practice swings after getting the sign. Try keeping the batter in the box and you will save some valuable game time.

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG
A batter who has one foot in the box gets his sign quicker than one out of the box. And a batter with one foot in the box does not take 2-3 practice swings after getting the sign. Try keeping the batter in the box and you will save some valuable game time.

Unless it's a timed game (and the HS games in this area are NOT), it's gonna take 7-innings one way or the other.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree whether taking the sign with one foot out of the batter's box is so much faster that it warrants admonishing each batter who fails to do it than those batters who have the <i>other</i> foot out of the batter's box, as well.

I attended another one of my sons' games tonight and I was, again, paying particular attention to this. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

I *did* see a few batters waste some time out of the batter's box who were NOT getting any signs. They could have probably used a word encouraging them to get into the box. But getting the signs? ... pfft ... a non-issue from my observations.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:55am

I personally do not care what other umpires do. I let the batter's know to stay in the box and they listen. I think it is a lame excuse to worry about what others might do. I do not have that kind of energy. The rule is there for a purpose, enforce it. If a coach has a problem, you have the rules to back you up. It is really that simple.

Peace

jpc2119 Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:00am

i took 3 things from this video:

1) pitcher wasn't throwing a lot of strikes
2) make sure my jacket is properly tucked in and not 3 sizes too big
3) never wear grey ball bags

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:04am

What is wrong with gray ball bags?

Peace

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 08:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I personally do not care what other umpires do. I let the batter's know to stay in the box and they listen. I think it is a lame excuse to worry about what others might do. I do not have that kind of energy. The rule is there for a purpose, enforce it. If a coach has a problem, you have the rules to back you up. It is really that simple.

Peace

That would be great if life was that simple. I wish it were as you say. But it is not!

When there exists a hardened tradition within a certain region - an umpire defies that tradition at his own peril.

If you strictly enforced this rule as you have described in this area ... sure, you could show the coaches the rule and ... sure, you'd be technically correct. And when you turned your back there would be a lot of eye-rolling. And one of those set of eyes that will be rolling would be your partner's. And, if this practice of yours continued you will rapidly become quite famous amongst the coaches. You will be known as the "pissy umpire." They'll talk about you behind your back and you will get absolutely no support from other members of the umpire organization as they attempt to distance themselves from you. Your stock will rapidly plummet and it will almost certainly manifest itself in some way that you will almost certainly find disagreeable.

Unfair? Probably.

Reality? Absolutely!

Choices have to be made in an umpire's career. In <i>this</i> area, this would be one of the choices you would be forced to make in your umpiring style. You can adopt the, "My way or the highway" style -or- you can bend a little in order to maintain the general order and harmony.

And, it's not like you would be compromising your moral values or cheating. My gosh - it's a SILLY RULE that, in the final analysis, doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I've long since decided that it's not a "war" worth fighting. So I bend.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should ignore this rule. I think you should do whatever works. In this area, enforcing it <i>doesn't work.</i> Oh, sure, they'll do what you say ... but that's not what I mean by "working."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

ajjl22 Tue Mar 28, 2006 08:10am

What you needed was a wider angle on the shot. If the pitcher is ready to go and the batter is out of the box, then that is when you start reminding the players to stay in the box. There were a couple of pitchs were the batter stepped out and did not take signs.

In my game yesterday, I had a couple kids doing there rituals after every pitch, I reminded them to keep a foot in the box and it eliminated the three practice swings after taking the signs. This rule is trying to eliminate the crap that goes on between the end of the signs and the batter getting into the box. the game was over in an 1:37.

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 08:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpc2119
i took 3 things from this video:

1) pitcher wasn't throwing a lot of strikes

5 pitches and you concluded <i>that</i>? :)

Quote:

2) make sure my jacket is properly tucked in and not 3 sizes too big
You tuck your jacket in? I'll admit, it does look a little big.

Quote:

3) never wear grey ball bags
Is grey bad?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 08:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajjl22
What you needed was a wider angle on the shot. If the pitcher is ready to go and the batter is out of the box, then that is when you start reminding the players to stay in the box. There were a couple of pitchs were the batter stepped out and did not take signs.

In my game yesterday, I had a couple kids doing there rituals after every pitch, I reminded them to keep a foot in the box and it eliminated the three practice swings after taking the signs. This rule is trying to eliminate the crap that goes on between the end of the signs and the batter getting into the box. the game was over in an 1:37.

You're right, it is not a delay until the battery is ready. Only <i>then</i> is the batter delaying the game.

But, wouldn't he <i>still</i> be delaying the game if the battery were ready and he had only one foot in the batter's box? As far as the game progressing, having one foot out is as good as having both feet out.

The question that it really comes down to is this: WHY isn't the batter ready?

Is he getting the signs from the coach? That should be permitted.

Is he taking practice swings ... that should not be permitted.

* * *

Look at he videoclips again. There are 5 separate batters.

Clip 1 - This is the lengthiest out-of-the-box segment of them all. But *all* that time is spent looking at the coach as he goes through a particularly lengthy set of signals. You can see the coach doing this. The "practice swings" taken by the batter are really not practice swings at all, more of a nervous something-to-do while the coach goes through his signals. The game is not delayed because the batter is out of the box, it is delayed because the coach is giving signals. The very moment the coach is finished, the batter promptly walks into the box. The "extra" time expended between having one foot out and both feet out can be measured in fractions of a second. It would take longer to enforce the rule than to ignore it.

Clip 2 - The batter steps out, checks with the coach, and promptly steps back into the batter's box. As the batter steps back into the batter's box, the catcher is just beginning to get the signal from his coach regarding the next pitch. The batter is ready sooner than the catcher. No practice swings ... no fidgeting. Not one thing is done while out of the batter's box that can be remotely considered extraneous. He's doing nothing but looking at his coach. Total time out of the box - 8 seconds. Do you know of any pitcher that delivers the next pitch within 8 seconds after the previous hits the catcher's mitt?

Clip 3 - The batter is back in the box while the catcher is still standing up. Who's delaying the game now?

Clip 4 - Out and in. To say that this batter delayed the game would border on ridiculous.

Clip 5 - This is a bad example because the pitch is in the dirt. Although the catcher cleanly comes up with it, this is actually one of the "exceptions" listed under 7-3-1. Nonetheless, there really is no delay here. If you just watch the batter, you would think he is delaying the game. He even takes a practice swing. But, at the same time, if you watch the catcher, you will see he is still standing and is actually talking with the umpire. The batter steps into the box just as the catcher begins his squat. No delay.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
I was also amazed at the amount of signs a JV coach finds necessary.

What? JV teams don't have hit-and-runs? Delayed steals? Suicide squeezes?

This gives me a chance to brag a little. Houston High School (not Texas!) is a 5A school that is almost always ranked in baseball. They have one of the strongest programs in the nation. They are currently the Tennessee State champions.

The JV program is closely monitored by the varsity coach. In fact, the players are chosen by the VARSITY coach and then handed over to the JV coach. The JV coach does *not* pick the players. Everything the JV does mirrors the way it is done on varsity ... even down to the indicator in their signals. The JV program is taken very seriously and it is not dismissed in any way.

Houston High School routinely sends players off to Division I schools and it is very common to have at least one player sign directly to Pro Ball. Matt Cain, one of the starters in the Giant's rotation, was drafted #1 when he graduated. There have been others since.

In short, this is not a typical JV program. They are currently 10-0 and have been averaging 11-runs per game. And they play strong competition.

This team doesn't just have a STEAL signal. They have ...
1. straight steal
2. delayed steal
3. early break (runners on 1st and 3rd)
4. fake steal
5. one way steal (for left-handed pitchers)
6. extra large leadoff - draw a throw - one way BACK

The kids have notes written on their arms during the preseason - so they don't forget, until they become comfortable with the signals.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:33am

Dave it sounds like you care what coaches think. I do not care what coaches think. Let them roll their eyes; I want the game to keep moving. If the coaches choose to not comply, I have rules to convince them. Dave this is not much different as a football official and basketball official. There are sideline warnings and coaching box issues we have to deal with and I hear all the time "no one else enforces that." My answer is always, "Coach I do not care what they did before, but today this is how it is going to be enforced." You would be surprised how many fall in line. Most of the time I think that is a bunch of crap on there part anyway on their part. They are just seeing what they can get away and are testing.

Peace

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
Dave it sounds like you care what coaches think. I do not care what coaches think.

On some matters - yes, I <i>do</i> care.

For instance, I want them to think I'm a good umpire.

If <i>you</i> want the coaches to think <i>you're</i> a good umpire, then you, <i>too</i>, care what they think. True?

Quote:

Let them roll their eyes; I want the game to keep moving. If the coaches choose to not comply, I have rules to convince them. Dave this is not much different as a football official and basketball official. There are sideline warnings and coaching box issues we have to deal with and I hear all the time "no one else enforces that." My answer is always, "Coach I do not care what they did before, but today this is how it is going to be enforced." You would be surprised how many fall in line. Most of the time I think that is a bunch of crap on there part anyway on their part. They are just seeing what they can get away and are testing.

Peace
I'll agree that when a coach says, "no one else enforces that," that he is frequently just being manipulative and it oftentimes isn't even true.

But, in <i>this</i> case, it would be <i>absolutely</i> true!

Did you see the umpire in the videoclip? That gentleman is a typical Memphis-area umpire. And the players you are observing are members of the region's most respected baseball program with an outstanding staff of competent coaches.

It's not about what ONE coach thinks ... it's about what they ALL think.

Believe me, if you grated on the nerves of EVERY coach in the area, you can stand on a righteous podium all you want and point to the page and paragraph in the book ... it won't do you an ounce of good. Your umpire career will be stagnant. If that's not important to you, then fine. You can be a crusading trailblazer with a righteous cause - and perhaps change the world.

Fair? Probably not.

Just a harsh fact.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling
On some matters - yes, I <i>do</i> care.

For instance, I want them to think I'm a good umpire.

If <i>you</i> want the coaches to think <i>you're</i> a good umpire, then you, <i>too</i>, care what they think. True?

Of course it would be nice if they feel I am a good umpire, but it is not one rule that is going to make them feel that way. If they feel I am a good umpire, I can persuade them to do what I suggest. That is not going to be affected by what others do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling
I'll agree that when a coach says, "no one else enforces that," that he is frequently just being manipulative and it oftentimes isn't even true.

But, in <i>this</i> case, it would be <i>absolutely</i> true!

Well that is his problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling
Did you see the umpire in the videoclip? That gentleman is a typical Memphis-area umpire. And the players you are observing are members of the region's most respected baseball program with an outstanding staff of competent coaches.

It's not about what ONE coach thinks ... it's about what they ALL think.

Does the umpire in the video not have a mask on? You are telling me he cannot quietly tell the batter to stay in the box? You do not have to make a Federal case over it. Just tell the kid to stay in the box and I bet they kid will stay in the box. Baseball is the one sport we can hide behind something and make a point and no one knows we even said anything. For God sake man, just tell the kid to stay in the box and I bet no one will say anything. The coach might not even know you made such a request.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling
Believe me, if you grated on the nerves of EVERY coach in the area, you can stand on a righteous podium all you want and point to the page and paragraph in the book ... it won't do you an ounce of good. Your umpire career will be stagnant. If that's not important to you, then fine. You can be a crusading trailblazer with a righteous cause - and perhaps change the world.

Fair? Probably not.

Just a harsh fact.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I did not say call a strike on the kid for the first or second minor offense. I said tell them to stay in the box. Once again it is your game and your time that you are wasting. If you want to sit there for another 30 minutes because kids think they are Major Leaguers that is you problem. I am going to tell them (with my mask on) to stay in the box and most of the time no one even knows I made such a request.

Also, the NF put out a POE stating that we are not to ignore rules we do not like and enforce only the rules we do. In my state these issues are supported by our state and evaluators.

My last playoff game last year my game took 1 hour and 13 minutes. It took that long largely because both teams had seen me many times during the year and over other seasons I knew what I was about. I did not have to worry about kids going to the back stop after every pitch and I did not have to worry about how many warm-up pitches are taken between innings or just about anything I requested to be done. When I enter a field I enter with a purpose. I am not there to be friends or to chat. I do everything I need to do and when I need to talk to a coach I talk to the coach at those appropriate times. If an umpire cannot get these little things done without a major fight, I wonder what those umpires are doing in other aspect of their games.

Most of all the last thing I care about is what some coach that will not be around in a year thinks of me. :eek:

Peace

Carbide Keyman Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:15pm

Imho ..........................
 
David,

I don't need anyone to validate my worth as an umpire. If you umpire to appeal to the participants, you are never going to succeed, because half of them are going to hate your every call.

If you want anyone to think your a good umpire, do a good job.

Many of the people you are concerned about impressing don't have a clue about the way an umpire does his job. They only care about how it affects them.

Be fair, firm, knowledgable, and call 'em as you see 'em !!!!



Doug

PeteBooth Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:45pm

If you umpire to appeal to the participants, you are never going to succeed, because half of them are going to hate your every call.

We should probably start a new thread because the responses have gone "off topic" on Davids original post (Rebuttal)

Your above statement IMO is totally invalid and you need look no further than MLB.

Some time ago, Major league Umpires were instructed to be more stringent in calling balks. I cannot remember the exact time period, but in 1/2 of that season alone, more balks were called then in all of the previous season.

Guess what!

The Players Union got involved and basically said I will paraphrase "You will go back to the way things were if you want to umpire here" Therefore, in the second half of the season things were back to normal.

The best advice that I received from not only my mentor but other knowledgeable umpires is that the game is NOT about us IT IS about the participants. You do not have to kiss their you know what, but if they want the game called a certain way and you want work in that League you will abide.

I will give a couple of examples without making this response too lengthly.

I was working this one particular league who had a "house rule" that superceded the rule book. DBT was only about 3-4 feet on either side of first / third base, meaning just about any over-throw would go into DBT. Therefore, on this one particular field, the award was one base from a throw anywhere.

The strike zone issue. After I "paid my dues" doing Modified/Freshman/JV HS ball I got to do my first CBL (Collegiate Wood bat League) game behind the dish. I was terrible in my first game from the standpoint of calling balls/strikes.

It wasn't that I was inconsistent but because I was NOT calling the zone the way they were accustomed to it being called. After calling out a batter on strike three, the comment was "Hey Blue this isn't JV anymore" I had my mentor watch me a couple of games, received constructive criticism and starting calling the zone that they wanted me to call. That doesn't mean a "postage" or not calling out a batter on strike three, but calling it the way they felt comfortable.

I could go on and on, but the point is The game is ABOUT the PARTICIPENTS and not US.

Pete Booth

SanDiegoSteve Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:48pm

Just like Rut, I never gave two hoots what a coach thought of me. Unfortunately, here in S.D., the coaches choose who works the semis and finals, so if you don't make their list, you don't work the big games. I have made a few, but not as many as the booty kissers.:)

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman
David,

I don't need anyone to validate my worth as an umpire. If you umpire to appeal to the participants, you are never going to succeed, because half of them are going to hate your every call.

If you want anyone to think your a good umpire, do a good job.

Many of the people you are concerned about impressing don't have a clue about the way an umpire does his job. They only care about how it affects them.

Be fair, firm, knowledgable, and call 'em as you see 'em !!!!

Doug

This isn't about trying to please an individual coach.

This isn't about being afraid to make a particular call because you (as the umpire) is concerned that some coach, player, or fan may not like it.

In a microcosm, I think you (and Rut) are absolutely correct with this philosophy. It's a sound one.

I'm painting this with a much broader brush, however. This isn't about the isolated issues that you keep focusing on. This is more of a cultural thing that transcends what happens in one game, with one coach, in one instance.

This has been going on for so long in this area that the genie is already out of the bottle. There's no fixing this other than by a unanimous consensus by the members of the umpire's association. And there is no will to do that - I can assure you. I'd be a salmon swimming upstream ... and to what end?

It has worked both ways. The players and coaches have been conditioned not to be too concerned about keeping one foot in the batter's box. And, conversely, the umpires have been conditioned to be equally unconcerned. The games move along fine and nobody seems to care. The coaches don't care, the umpires don't care, and the fans don't care.

I don't need to hear this righteous stuff about how the FED has mandated that umpires not choose to ignore rules that are not of their liking. I'm aware of this.

Yet, I can guarantee you I could come up with a list of situations, that would require you to rule in a particular way (in accordance with FED rules), that you would <i>never</i> do. That goes for Rut, too.

Rut says that he would just tell the delaying batter to get back in the box. Fine! But is that what the rule says to do? No! It says that the umpire <b>shall</b> call a strike.

So which is worse, ignoring the rule that the batter keep one foot in the box, or ignore the PENALTY for the rule?

Even casebook play 7.3.1A has the umpire giving the batter verbal warnings about being out of the box. I.E. "10 seconds" ... "5 seconds". Apparently, the batter <i>can</i> delay out of the box.

Substantively, what's the difference between saying "nothing" to a batter who is out of the box (for less than 20-seconds) or badgering him with a countdown as if a Saturn V rocket is going to be launched?

It's just an opinion of mine. I happen to believe it's needless badgering on an relatively unimportant matter.

If you examine all the casebook plays that have to do with this rule, it is somewhat inconsistent and it appears that there is room for the umpire <i>not</i> to call the penalty if he feels there was no delay. That being the case, why even bother mentioning it to the batter <i>unless</i> there is a delay?

Remember, I *do* tell the batter, "Let's go!" when I determine he is wasting time. But, as the videoclips convincingly indicate, most of the time the batter is NOT delaying the game by being out of the batter's box. I don't see how you can look at those videoclips and draw any other conclusion.

If it works for you ... and you are convinced it speeds the game up ... fine. I can't fault you for that.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David Emerling Tue Mar 28, 2006 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth
I could go on and on, but the point is The game is ABOUT the PARTICIPENTS and not US.

Which is <i>exactly</i> why the umpires in this area do not strictly enforce this rule. Apparently, that's the way the participants prefer it.

Although, this may be a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" type of thing.

I don't know if the participants behave in this way <i>because</i> of the umpires -or- the umpires don't enforce the rule <i>because</i> of the participants. Either way, it's been going on for so long nobody cares WHY ... it just IS.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Rich Tue Mar 28, 2006 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
What is wrong with gray ball bags?

Peace

What is wrong with Byron collared basketball shirts? :D

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
What is wrong with Byron collared basketball shirts? :D

I know what you are getting at, but I do not think that is the same issue. Both umpires are not wearing ball bags on the field. The retailers do not even sell Byron collared basketball shirts anymore. One has become completely passé and the other is sold and recommend. Apples and oranges if you ask me. ;)

Peace

Rich Tue Mar 28, 2006 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I know what you are getting at, but I do not think that is the same issue. Both umpires are not wearing ball bags on the field. The retailers do not even sell Byron collared basketball shirts anymore. One has become completely passé and the other is sold and recommend. Apples and oranges if you ask me. ;)

Peace

I don't disagree. But here I am with a baseball game on Thursday and I'm missing basketball season.

You can always get a Byron collar shirt -- buy a football shirt and cut off the pocket :)

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2006 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
I don't disagree. But here I am with a baseball game on Thursday and I'm missing basketball season.

You can always get a Byron collar shirt -- buy a football shirt and cut off the pocket :)

If you go to a website and you have to buy a shirt from a sport that you will not use it for, then you should not be using it. ;)

I miss the basketball season as well. Now I cannot wait until the camp season. :(

Peace

mbyron Tue Mar 28, 2006 07:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
What is wrong with Byron collared basketball shirts? :D

Well, for one thing, I don't get a cut. ;)


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