I'm going to begin a search through my various references for the answer, but in the meantime I'll pose the question here:

OBR

Batter runs up in an apparent attempt to slap hit. However, he lays off the pitch, and the pitch hits him while he is out of the batter's box. The pitch had no chance to become a strike, and you believe the batter did not intentionally allow the ball to hit him.

According to the literal language of the book, the batter would be awarded 1B, but I'm wondering whether anyone knows different.

I'm not really sure how this situation could possibly happen given your description, but rule 6.02 states:

"c) If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter's box during his time at bat, the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch, and shall call "Strike" on each such pitch."

Seems to me that if you aren't in the box it is similar to leaning into the strike zone. Even if it hits you it is still a strike, and no bases will be awarded. Note that the umpire needs to tell the batter to enter the box before this situation can happen. No "slap" hitting in baseball, this isn't happy gilmore.

MLBUM does not address this, and this is all J/R says for exceptions of a first base award:

"(1) The batter is hit-by-pitch (HBP).

A batter is awarded first base when a pitch touches his person unless:
(a) it is a strike (swinging or in the strike zone), or
(b) he intentionally tried to be touched by the pitch."

So, according to this, he still gets first base.

I'll keep looking, but this may be a loophole.

Alex,

The batter did not refuse to take his position in this case. He was already legally in the box prior to the pitch, so 6.02 does not apply here.

We have already determined that you cannot call a pitch that isn't a strike a strike.

Slap hitting has always been a part of baseball. Come on now.

Here, the JEA states that if the batter is in a legal batting position, he gets first base. According to this logic, the batter does not get the award.

Situations: The batter is standing in the batter's box and a pitched ball grazes the sleeve of his undershirt but not his arm. Does this entitle him to first base?
RULING: Yes. If he or his clothing is touched while in a legal batting position, he is awarded first base.

I'm not claiming any justification for calling a strike. My instinct would be to call hit by pitch unless it appeared that the batter's being out of the box caused the contact. In other words, if the batter runs up and has a foot completely over the line when he's drilled by fastball that would have hit him anyway, that's HBP. If both feet are in front of the box and he sort of runs into a change-up, well, maybe not. But what about something in between? Intentionally leaving the box, not to avoid a pitch but for another reason--maybe this is pure HTBT.

Yet now we have "legal batting position" to deal with. I'm surprised that I can't remember ever having had to deal with this.

The issue arose originally in ASA FP softball--just a question from a spectator--but nobody's quite sure of the ruling. While we're waiting for a definitive answer, I figured I'd consider the parallel with OBR. Apparently in NCAA softball, it's a dead ball, no pitch. (Hey--a do-over!)

Didn't we just beat the heck out of this one recently?

Offbeat answer:

The pitcher threw a pitch which did not cross the plate or reach the foul lines. Balk.

However, the batter is not allowed to, through his actions, cause a balk. So instead of a balk, you have a no-pitch.

:)

mc, I don't like the call of no pitch here. I certainly agree that we can't award batter 1B if he's out of the box when hit by the pitch, and the JEA language of "legal batting position" makes sense to me. I can sell that to a coach.

Further, I can't see even rewarding the offense with a no-pitch here: if the batter HAD made contact with the ball when clearly out of the box, he would have been out (though if I'm PU I probably don't see that he's out of the box - but we're trying to get the right call by the rules here).

Still, how do you call a pitch that never reaches the plate? I'd like to say I'd call it according to what it would have been had it reached the plate, but I'm thinking that jenkins will start posting "rule reference please" again... and I don't have one...

So, where does that leave us? No pitch? I've got no rule reference for that, either...

I guess the one smileyface wasn't enough.

No, I wasn't serious... although since this is TECHNICALLY not addressed in the book, I suppose it's as good as any other solution.

In reality, I'm calling this a strike. It was going to be a strike had the batter not interrupted the ball's flight prematurely (and not with the bat). No sense rewarding this action, whether intentional or not. If I have to invoke 9.01c, so be it.

<b>It was going to be a strike had the batter not interrupted the ball's flight prematurely</b>

Note that the troublemaker who started this thread specified that "the pitch had no chance to become a strike."

Even if you meant simply that you would make that claim to resolve the situation, I can imagine some pitches on which that might be difficult to get away with.

E.g. Ball bounces before it hits the batter.

-LilLeaguer

Sorry Grey - I thought that you meant that the actions of the batter caused the pitch to not have a chance to become a strike (ie it was blocked before reaching the plate).

If the pitch was going to be a ball, I have a simple HBP. If it was going to be a strike, I have a DB Strike. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I agree. No rules references requested. ;)

I am having trouble figuring out where the batter was when the ball hit him ?

Where were his feet, and his body ?

You say he started out legally in the Batter’s Box. This attempt to Slap the ball, could it have been considered an attempt at the ball ? If so, you have a Strike ? This might be no different than a batter squaring to bunt, then moving his entire body and bat towards the ball, rather than just the bat...Yes He Went !

I am asking about the original question, and not any other possibilities.

Nick,

greymule said the batter was hit with the ball while out of the batter's box. He also said the batter did not go.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Mar 17th, 2006 at 03:02 PM]

Picture a lefty, about a step toward the pitcher from the front of the box. I believe this is the OP's sitch.

Yes. I didn't specify a lefty, but that's what I pictured, too.

I've seen 1 right handed true slap hitter in my entire career, so I thought it a relatively safe assumption.

OK, re-read and agree with your interp.

Geez, I just can't picture a batter "running" inside the batters box to a pitched ball. What are we talking about, maybe two steps if he was at the very back of the box. But then, I haven't seen "everything" yet.

So, assuming the batter did not swing (or attempt in the umpire's judgement), and the ball hit the batter outside of the Strike Zone...

Ball to the batter, stay here for more abuse from the pitcher.

But, for me, if that bat was moving towards the pitch, even if being held while the body was moving, I am likely to say he went, and call a Strike. If a batter squares to bunt, and then moves his entire body towards the pitch (bat moves with them), that is an attempt. So why wouldn't it be for a Slap hit ?

Batters often run up to bunt, or slash bunt, and they are out of the batter's box, yet have not offered at the pitch. They aren't running "inside" they are running out of the front of the box.

I have also called batters out for making contact with the ball in these cases, as both feet have been entirely outside the box when the ball was hit.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_9_19.gif

Sometimes batters do run up and out of the box and actually make contact. They're out. More often, particularly if batters simply want to show slap or bunt to see what the defense is doing or keep them honest, they run up and out of the box with the foreknowledge that they're going to lay off the pitch, strike or not. I'm thinking more of those cases. Clearly out of the box, didn't offer, and got hit.

Those of us who also do high-level FP softball see more of this. Few batters are on the back line, and slaps and bunts are a (much) larger part of the game. But softball gives the batter an extra 12 inches forward. Their box is 3 by 7, not baseball's 4 by 6.

I have not made this call in years, in fact I don't remember the last time. 2-2 count, batter is crowding the plate in the 6th, as he did in the 1st and the 4th. He leans into a pitch over the plate and in the strike zone. I ring up strike 3 and then explain it to the head coach, who did not complain. I expect this player gets hit alot the way he crowds the plate. Half the crowd is saying "good call blue" and the other half is saying stuff like "bush call", etc.

While I know this was the correct call, I was going over in my mind the what if, what if he was 3 inches in front of the plate when struck by what would have been a strike if allowed to enter the strike zone. Some here have made a good arguement for calling a ball, by rule, because the pitch had not entered the strike zone it can't be a strike. This seems extremely illogical to me. If you are struck by a pitch in front of the plate by a pitch that would most likely have been a strike if allowed to continue on it's path, it seems to me like that should be called a strike.

If the pitch had a chance to become a strike, then it should be called a strike. I don't think that anyone is claiming that that pitch should be called a ball. I'm talking about a pitch that has no chance to become a strike.

I don't know, greymule. There was just a huge debate on the subject of whether or not you should call a strike on a pitch that would have been a strike, but never made it to the zone. There seems to be quite a difference of opinion. Many feel that you cannot call a strike based on a pitch that "would have been" a strike.

But those who attended the Evans Clinic in Portland know that Jim believes you can and should.

Well Garth, I guess if Jimmy said it, it must be right!

I would put that differently. When Jim tells students that, he is relating the accepted practice at the professional level.

Some wonder if Jim, retired since 1999, is still regarded highly at the professional level. Aside from his school placing the majority of the new minor league umpires during the time that has lapsed, he has also been consulted by members of the rules committee.

Some twenty of the the 237 mistakes he has identified in the major league rule book will be corrected in the next edition. As one member of the committee put it, referring to the process involved: "We'll get to them all, but it will take time."

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 18th, 2006 at 05:41 PM]

Garth,

I was just kiddin' around, being a smart astronaut. I would love to see Jim's corrections in the rule book someday.

This is a perfect example of something that belongs spelled out in the rules.

But it only takes ONE foot to be out, for the OUT, right ?

One foot out and entirely on the ground to call the batter out. I've only had to call it several times over the years and every time I've called a batter out for making contact while out of the box has been when they were laying down a drag bunt.


Tim.

My FED class has a couple guys who went to Harry's school, including one who is at PBUC at the moment. They have claimed (and so presumably been told) that Harry's, not the Academy, has placed the majority of minor league umpires in the past 10 years, AND that Harry's grads "last" longer than Academy grads in pro ball.

I'd like to see some stats on that...

I can't see giving a HBP if the batter
is not within the confines of the box.
Especially if HE is the cause of being out
of the box. If he is avoiding the pitch
and is out of the box, that's a different
subject.
What would be the rationale behind giving
the batter a base? It seems to me that moving
forward out of the box would be no different
than moving into a pitch within the box.

Wow, three times already this year? I can honestly say I haven't see it called three times in the last 4 or 5 years in all the games I've watched or umpired. I would say the coaches in your area could really use some improvemment if that's the case.


Tim.

I have seen this at my games, but 99% of the time when contact with the ball is made the foot has not yet come down to make contact with the ground.