From another board...want to mkae sure I'm right before I answer.

A hit ball makes contact with the pitching rubber and goes directly into foul territory between homeplate and 1st(or 3rd). Fair or foul? Rule reference?

Foul.

I think the OBR reference is in 2.0-Foul

I don't know why so many people get confused about this. It is no different than if the ball hits any part of the ground and then rolls over either foul line before 1st and/or 3rd base. Just because it hits the rubber doesn't make it a fair ball. Hitting the rubber isn't the same as hitting the 1st or 3rd base bag. Now the question that needs to be asked is... Batter hits a line drive up the middle. The ball hits the front edge of second base and flies over the foul line between home and 3rd base where it rolls to a stop. Is this a fair or foul ball?

OP: Foul ball, all rulesets.

Question in previous post: Depends on the ruleset.

Thanks. I was 95% sure that it was a foul ball.

In what ruleset is it foul?

If there's a rule set that calls a batted ball hitting second base, then going into foul territory between first/third and home a "foul ball", I've never found it!

Mcrowder, which rule set are you infering would call this "foul"?

What if a pop-up lands 1 foot over 1st and 2 inches in fair territory? You're pointing fair right?
What if the ball bounces backward because of backspin, over the base without touching it and then rolls into foul territory?
If you have fair ball here you have to have fair ball if it bounces foul off of 2nd, 2nd is clearly past 1st and 3rd.
I don't know the rule that applies but I've got fair ball until someone shows me the error of my ways.

What if I'm an idiot or a member of Congress?

Bob P.

I can't believe there's any code in which a ball that hits 2B and then somehow rebounds foul within 3B or 1B would be ruled a foul ball. Definitely not in OBR. After all, a ball that hits 1B or 3B is fair even if it bounces backward foul without actually passing a base.

Fed has the 1B-3B line. A ball that touches behind that line is fair even if it subsequently rolls foul. (The pitcher's plate, of course, is in front of that line.) In OBR, such a ball is foul. I don't know how LL or other codes rule on that one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a ball that lands beyond the line directly between 1B and 3B is fair in FED, regardless of where it rolls, but in OBR, the ball must hit fair territory beyond 1B or 3B - meaning past the line between 1B and 2B or past the line between 2B and 3B.

I'd have to get my books out again, but I seem to remember that a perpendicular line drawn from 1B will intersect with a perpendicular line drawn from 3B at the CENTER of 2B (again... correct me if I'm wrong), which would put the front corner of 2B in front of the line mentioned above that makes it a fair ball.

Yes, this is a nit I'd never pick in a game, and this sitch is probably very TWP.

Why would the intersecting lines go to the middle of 2nd base?

If you draw the line from the front edge of 3rd and the front edge of 1st, will these lines not intersect at the front corner of 2nd?

OBR 2.00 Fair:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball ...that touches first, second or third base, or that...

I think that answers your question.

Your FED reference was also correct.

And there you have it. :)

No no no no no no no.

Forget the bases themselves ... once the ball touches fair territory beyond 1st or 3rd (the definition of "beyond" differs between OBR and FED, but the principle is the same), it is a fair ball, even if it rolls untouched back across the foul line between 1B or 3B and home.

Is either of those statements in NCAA?

Fair ball.

Largeone gave you one reason when he mentioned the ball hit the second base bag. If by some act of God the ball landed just in front of the second base bag with enough backspin to cause it to pass the foul line between home and third or home and first it would still be a fair ball. Second base is beyond both the first and third base bag.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments... If a fly ball lands on or beyond first or third base and then bounces to foul territory, it is a fair hit. Clubs, increasingly, are erecting tall foul poles at the fence line with a wire netting extending along the side of the pole on fair territory above the fence to enable the umpires more accurately to judge fair and foul balls.


Tim.

<b>If by some act of God the ball landed just in front of the second base bag with enough backspin to cause it to pass the foul line between home and third or home and first it would still be a fair ball. Second base is beyond both the first and third base bag.</b>

Fair in Fed. Foul in OBR. I do not know about NCAA.

Second base is <i>farther</i> from home than first base is, but second base is not considered <i>beyond</i> first base.


<b>to enable the umpires more accurately to judge fair and foul balls.</b>

Kudos to the writers of the rule book for avoiding the split infinitive!

[Edited by greymule on Mar 7th, 2006 at 04:01 PM]

trying to find FED rule for ball hitting pither's plate and going into foul territory between home and either 1st or 3rd. I know that it is foul, but cannot find in rule book. I can only find definition of a foul 2-16-1. Help!

Then you've found it. The definition is all you need. There is nothing anywhere in the rule book to tell you to treat the mound or pitcher's plate any differently than any other patch of grass or dirt. The definition itself tells you that this ball is foul.

The play would more likely be presented in the case book anyway.

Whoa. Back-up a second.

bellsjc asked:

"Batter hits a line drive up the middle. The ball hits the front edge of second base and flies over the foul line between home and 3rd base where it rolls to a stop. Is this a fair or foul ball?"

To which mcrowder replied:

"Question in previous post: Depends on the ruleset."

And then, I asked:

"Mcrowder, which rule set are you infering would call this "foul"?

And then things branched off in several different directions...

Still haven't got an answer to that one.

Every rule set I'm aware of would call this a fair ball. Why does it matter "which rule set"? It's fair for all of them, isn't it?

[Edited by BretMan on Mar 7th, 2006 at 06:08 PM]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't seem to find any interpretation that would support the idea that the second base bag is not to be considered beyond first or third.

If you were to draw a line from the back edge of first base and continue it on to the back edge of third base, the second base bag is beyond that line.

Tim.

seems like the variable in this discussion is what everybody's personal definition of "beyond" is.

If we had a clear cut definition of "beyond", then this would solve everything.

In OBR, a ball that hits just in front of 2B and then spins backward is not considered as having passed a base. To pass 1B, the ball would have to cross the line defined by 1B and 2B.

Notice that Fed specifically designates its boundary as the line between 1B and 3B. OBR does not mention any such line.

I know that this hinges on the definitions of words that are often tossed around rather loosely in general conversation, but I'm quite sure of this interpretation.

<b>seems like the variable in this discussion is what everybody's personal definition of "beyond" is.</b>

True. If you're in Philadelphia, Los Angeles is <i>farther</i> than New York, but it's not <i>beyond</i> New York. And you can hit a ball that's farther than 1B, but not beyond it.

[Edited by greymule on Mar 7th, 2006 at 06:59 PM]

From BRD item 105: batted ball hits pitcher's plate and goes foul

FED: Point not covered, but OFF INTERP 80-105 "A batted ball hitting the pitcher's plate and rebounding to foul ground between home and first or home and third witout touching a fielder is a foul ball as it did not hit beyond the imaginary line in the infield.

NCAA: "Same as FED"

OBR: "Same as NCAA"

"Though all codes are now the same this section will remain until the NFHS Committee incorporates OFF INTERP 80-105 into its rule book."

From BRD item 103: batted ball hits beyond imaginary line

FED: "A batted ball hitting beyond an imaginary line running between first and third is a fair ball, regardless of where the ball might first settle."

NCAA: "Point not covered."

OBR: "Point not covered."

I was incorrect. It is fair in both rulesets. The difference in the rulesets would apply if the ball landed just short of 2B and rolled back foul - but if, as in the OP, it actually HIT 2B, it's fair. I was off on that.

We do - in FED, "beyond" is anything that crosses a straight line between 1st base and 3rd base. In OBR, "beyond" is anything that crosses a line running perpendicular to the foul lines from 1st and 3rd base (these lines meet at second base).

Agreed.

Quote:

In OBR, "beyond" is anything that crosses a line running perpendicular to the foul lines from 1st and 3rd base (these lines meet at second base).

Reference, please. (I agree that's what's commonly used, but I don't recall reading it specifically anywhere. Then again, my memory isn't what it used to be.)

DG,
without sounding stupid (which might be impossible), where in the FED rule book is "a batted ball hitting beyond an imaginary line ..." found?

Also, could you clarify where you found OFF INTERP 80-105? What is the BRD? Where can I get a copy?

I apologize for my ignorance!

2-5-1b

Quote:

Also, could you clarify where you found OFF INTERP 80-105? What is the BRD? Where can I get a copy?

BRD is Baseball Rules Differences, by Carl Childress. You can order a copy from officiating.com

thank you Bob, not sure how I missed it. Sounds like I need to join officiating.com

You don't have to join to buy the book. You join if you want to read articles that are not free. When you join you get $25 off purchasing stuff at officiating.com and I use that to get a BRD every year.