Re: Re: Re: Gee Whiz
 

It's sad indeed that you feel you are above the learning curve. Even the most seasoned veterans continue to look to resources like the Evans video to improve their skills as umpires. Of course you don't need a video to help you. You don't even need a rule book to help you call games.
The idea behind using a resource like this is to better prepare you to recognize a balk you haven't seen on the diamond before and condition you to pull the trigger when necessary.
I only called the ones I saw, but at least I was able to recognize them.
So, it's your entire association that makes up their own rules. Do you use a stop watch to count that full second stop or do you just silently say "one Mississippi" to yourself to measure the time.


Tim.

Well, I usually look for ~ 1.3 to 1.6 second 'stops' in the set. That's what we usually go by, it is what works for us......don't need a video to tell me that .

I'll go up to a too-much-in-a-hurry pitcher, use the word discernible, and slow him down for a full 3 innings while he is pondering what I just said.

Simple SOUND Physics Proof #???
 

Let's borrow from one of Einstein's Princeton University models. First imagine that you could shrink yourself to the size of several seams and attach yourself safely onto the baseball. Then you would like to know what it feels like to take a ride atop a baseball. The only argument I have read so far in your physical model of reality is that your mini-mi would be very dizzy after riding on a 70 mph (coasting) curveball because of all that spinning. By extending your argument, mini-mi wouldn't be as dizzy riding a 70 mph (coasting) fastball because it doesn't spin as fast in any of the eight primal directions as it does during a curveball. There is something definitely missing from your argument.

This model basically fails because it doesn't even consider the surface AIR pressure difference between 70 mph and 100 mph. Mini-mi would be subjected to crushing forces on the forward side of the baseball to almost no force on the back side of the baseball. But there is another side to this coin. Ever heard the differnce between a used batting practice baseball at 70 mph and 100 mph. That NOISE flutter you hear is almost entirely due to AIR PRESSURE along the SEAMS. Failing to consider warm humid sea-level AIR pressure effects on the SEAMS of a 100 mph baseball is about as appropriate as believing someone cannot throw a ^RISING^ fastball. I CANNOT let that go as quietly as the SOUND DIFFERENCE on the CATCHER"S MITT,

Now who can ramp that up to 135 mph, TOODLES?

From the set
 

I saw five pages of guys exercising ego and insults without anyone bothering to help the rookie that asked the original question. Fine example for the rookies, guys!

Rulebook Page 40 Rule 6 Section 1, Article 1

...The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position........

Rulebook Page 41 Rule 6, Section 1, Article 3.

.........He shall go the set position without interruption and in one continous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the abll in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin.

If I am mistaken feel free to correct me, but I believe he is saying that the pitcher stepped on the rubber with his feet in the set position and immdiately went into his pitching motion, much like a Little League pitcher. Yes, this is a balk. Call it as early as possible. In high school, a coach is responsible for making sure the pitcher knows the pitching rule. Call it right away and correct it so the pitcher does not keep doing it. What I don't understand, did he keep pitching this way the whole game and did the other coach have anything to say? I know this, if you don't call it the first inning, you'd better not plan on calling it in the seventh inning and the opposing coach should not be allowed to ***** about it later in the game.

Let's not forget?
 

Reznor
Member

Registered: Feb 2006
Posts: 2
Ok Im good all. Thanks for the help. I spoke to an experienced umpire in my association and he cleared it up for me.

Your concern for the umpire asking the initial question is appreciated. However, if you'll look closely at what he was asking you'll see his question was answered pretty quickly.

He didn't say anything about the pitcher stepping to the rubber in the set position and quick pitching. He said the pither started in the set position and then raised his hands above his head before he delivered the ball. That's where he had some confusion, on the motion of the hands. He was told early on as long as the pitcher raised the hands and delivered the ball in one continuous motion it wouldn't be a balk.


Tim.

Tim,

I must disagree here. I believed at the time he asked the question, he meant he started out getting on the rubber with his hands together, and then started his motion. This is what I said:

What he did constitutes a balk.

I guess we're reading his intentions differently. I read this as the pitcher being in the set position as opposed to the windup. I don't see him mention anything about the pitcher seperating his hands. The way I envisioned what he was describing was the pitcher bringing his hands over his head while still together as part of his motion to the plate. The motion of the hands may have made it look like the windup, but absent the step back with the free foot I see this as a proper set position.


Tim.

It is not a legal set position unless he brings his hands together and then makes a discernible stop. What he wrote was the pitcher starting immediately into his pitching motion with no set. This is clearly a balk.
What he wrote was definitely a balk

I went back and reread exactly what the official wrote. "He lifted his hands over his head and pitched." If he stepped on the rubber into the set position with his hands together, he balked. If he stepped onto the rubber with his hands apart and then brought his hands together and pitched without a discernible stop, he balked. Any way you slice it, he balked.

Please show me where he said anything about the pitcher stepping to the rubber at all, let alone stepping to the rubber in the set with his hands together. He only said the pitcher started in the set. To me that would inferr that he had already come set after taking his signs and then began his preliminary motion to deliver the pitch, and in doing so, raised his hands over his head. He's allowed to do this unless he steps back with the free foot at the same time. Sorry, but I don't see a balk here without reading more into the question than what was written.

Tim.

Here is the true right answer, as the question was poorly worded to start with. It depends on what was meant by "being in the set" in order to ascertain whether or not it was a balk. If the pitcher came to a set position legally, then what he did was not a balk. If he started his motion with his hands together, it was a balk.

Bad Mechanics
 

Not a balk, just one of those LEGAL inconsistent variations that DG describes to a TEE.

In this particular motion, no base runner is present. The pitcher may still pitch from a stretch. The pitcher is taking his sweet time (stalling) delivering the ball to the plate by raising his hands a second time. Its one of those double pump thingies with the high leg kick. The opposite form from the slide step where he would pitch directly to the plate with a lower leg kick. Later the pitcher will VARY (shorten) his mechanics with a runner on base. This play as described is completely LEGAL.

JMOHOA
NO BALK.

How many times have you failed the MMPI, SAump?



Tim.

To SAUMP- have you actually opened up and read the Federation rulebook? This is not umpire interpretation. The pitcher's feet determine windup or stretch. I'm not making it up- it's in the rulebook. What a picher can and cannot do when in the stretch is in the rulebook. Whether or not to pause is not my interpretation- it's in the rulebook. If you are going to start making up your own rules, I hope you don't work a game with me, because we will definitely be combing coaches out of our hair.

Naturally Consistent
 

From what I have read, this was part of the natural delivery motion and it is completely LEGAL.

Read it yourself here, "Ok. Here's the situation. I was doing a JV game the other day and the pitcher was starting in the set position (not the stretch). From being set he would then lift both of his hands and glove above his head then make his delivery. Is this a balk or is a pitcher not required to come directly to the plate if hes not making or feinting a pickoff move?"

"From being set," fulfills the 1st requirement for preliminary motions and "he would then make his delivery," fulfills the last requirement. That "raising his hands and glove above his head" sounds like he's been taught to conceal the baseball until the last possible moment. A very practical thing prior to making the natural delivery motion to the plate.

There is NO runner on base and NO attempt to deceive the runner or batter was made. I already stated that it would be a BALK if a quick pitch attempt was made. Others have already spoken that outside a quickpitch, this is completely LEGAL. I certainly hope it was completely LEGAL because there is NO BALK rule pertaining to his natural motion.

Re: Naturally Consistent
 

SAump, read the rules. The set position is when the pitcher, in one continuous motion, comes to a complete and discernable stop, with both hands in front of the body and the glove at or below chin level, by FED definition.

If the pitcher engages the rubber with his hands in front of the body and the glove at or below chin level and then delivers the ball to the plate with out coming to a complete and discernable stop, HE HAS BALKED!

You forgot the one other requirement from pitching from the set position, coming to a complete and discernable stop.

Re: NEW RULES?
 

If the pitcher gets a sign there is a prescribed way to do it, but I don't recall a requirement for the pitcher to actually get a sign. So if he wants to step into a set position while bringing his hands together, without using a stretch, then he just needs to stop in this set position before delivering.

PWL,

What DG is saying is that in order to take a sign from the catcher, the pitcher must be on the rubber. The pitcher may, if he chooses, step on the rubber, not take a sign, and then go to a set position. There is nothing that says he must take a sign, and you said that the pitcher must take his sign.

Picture this. RHP from behind the rubber, turns his right foot to the right and places it parallel to and in contact with the rubber and as he is doing this brings his hands together and plants his left foot on the ground in a direct line to the plate 3 feet from his right foot and stops. He is set, without a conventional stretch, and can pitch from this position. He may not need to get a sign, so the stop could be brief. I think this is consistent with the wording provided in the JEA on this subject.

To consider this a quick pitch I would have to consider the same conditions under which I would call one from the windup position, ie a batter is stepping into the box, and the pitcher is moving in a quick, deliberate manner to surprise the batter before he is set. The fact that he did not get a sign while in contact with the rubber before using a conventional stretch would not constitute a quick pitch.

[Edited by DG on Mar 1st, 2006 at 11:15 PM]

Have we not learned yet?

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

He's only saying this nonsense to get you guys riled up. You're falling for it.