I am a little confused about LL substitution 11-12 tournament rules.

If a player is removed from the game for a substitute, and the player is re-entered illegally, without the knowledge of the umpire.

Example: Jones is pitcher, Smith bats for Jones, but before he completes his at bat, a runner is picked off. Jones re-enters as pitcher without the manager announing the sub.

At the end of the inning, Smith tries to take his turn at bat and opposing manager protests.

Illegal substitution is grounds for protest, but if not made before the next pitch it is ignored. So the re-entering of Jones is made legal because a half inning ahs gone by. But since Smith has already entered and been removed, he cannot be legally re-entered.

The problem is that now, Smith's team will be required to forfeit because Smith has not played the required amount, and the manager is not allowed to insert him.

My instinct would be to eject the player who entered illegally and force the correct player to enter the game, but I am told that I am wrong about this.

Subs can re-enter under tournament rules.

Rich is right you may reenter subs but it's going to kill your pitcher. All the more reason the managers should know the rules before they get to tournament play.

I still have the 1999 book, I guess they changed that rule. Even so, it is still possible that a problem could occur. Suppose in top of 3rd inning, a pitcher, Adams, is brought in to get the last out. In the bottom of the 3rd, Baker bats for Adams, but does not complete his bat as a runner is thrown out. Adams returns to the mound in the top of the 4th, gets the first batter out, but is removed after walking the next 3 batters. Baker enters. At some point after the next pitch, manager brings it to PU attention that there was an illegal substitution, Adams was removed twice without completing the required at bat or 3 defensive outs.

I guess my real point is that if illegal substitution could result in a player not playing his required time, and it isn't realized until after the next pitch, then is that an automatic forfeit? As a manager it would be to your advantage to wait to bring it to PU attention instead of protesting the illegal substitution immediately.

The real illegal substitution happened when Adams returned to pitch before Baker completed his MPR. As Baker didn't complete his AB - Adams could not be re-entered at that time.

That's my point. Intournament rules, protests for illegal subs are considered only when they are made before the next pitch. Does that mean when a person is subbed illegally before meeting the MPR, and is unable to re-enter due to the illegal sub, that the game is forfeited.

Another example. Starter John is pulled after pitching to 1 batter. Sub Paul is struck by a line drive and has to leave the game. Since the sub never meets the requirement to allow the starter to re-enter, the starter can never meet the MPR. Is this now a forfeit?

Joe - It's not an automatic. The Tournament Committee decides.

Read Playing Rule 5. "No game may be forfeited or a team disqualified without the authorization of the Tournament Committee. Violations which may result in forfeiture or disqualification must be reported to the Regional Director before further play takes place which would involve a team or teams affected by such action."

There's also a tournament rule that says a kid removed for injury can't come back without medical approval.

In other words, report the situation immediately. Get a decision before continuing. I'd bet you'd get the OK to re-enter in your scenario. If it was an absolute, the committee would't need to get involved. They are there to assess the circumstances and make a decision.

9(c) (MPR Violation) also notes that the forfeit can only be authorized by the tournament committee.