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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 12:42am
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Well then help me to understand what it is you're trying to advocate in each situation. I can easily accept the fact that I may have misunderstood you.

In the batter switching boxes situation. What are your suggestions on how to handle it? Are you going to put a stop to it or allow it by rule.

For the HBP situation what is your position. Do you want to call time and have a do-over? Do you call the strike and ring him up? Are you going to hold a pow-wow with both coaches?

Please explain to me how a defensive coach would ever like the outcome when his pitcher has to face a batter he just struck out because the umpire couldn't judge the pitch on a HBP. He's not. He's going to be incredibly upset and more than likely get himself ejected.

No matter what you think of my opinions there is no need for name calling. I've never cast a disparaging comment your way and would appreciate it if you would act like an adult when we disagree. I would think this board has had enough childish name calling during the time PWL was here. We don't need someone trying to take his place now that he's gone.


Tim.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 02:41am
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Re: Wait right there,

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
If the coach doesn't stop within reason, I would ask the coach to send for the field or tournament director. The third time it happened after my warning, I would call time and consult with the tournament director. I would ask that the coach be restricted to the dugout for refusing to take heed of my request to stop. I would ask him to place another adult at third base to coach the baserunners. If the coach gets out of line, I would eject immediately. I really don't need him there with a bad attitude.

I am there to witness a baseball game, and not these shinanigans. Its not my responsibility to control the crowd, and I can't have a coach enticing the fans to bait the poor pitcher or the fans of the losing team. I would also request that the tournament director talk to the losing coach and a parent during the game. With this suppport, I would write a letter to the commish detailing the events that took place and the coach's refusal to grant my request. Without his support, I would probably just change clothes and go HOME and forget about it.

Just MOHO.
I'm sorry. I don't mean any disrespect. This is about the worst advice I have ever heard on any subject in the history of the world since I've been in it!!!

What the batter is doing by switching boxes in perfectly legal, doh!

I've been doing pre-game plate conferences for years, and the spirit of fair play never entered into one. Jeez...

All the way to writing letters to the commissioner, oh my!!

It's a freakin' baseball game for cryin' out loud!

You lost control of this game about the time you sent for the tournament director. You need to handle your bidness yourself, pardner.

I sure hope you don't think I'm attacking you personally by saying that this has got to tie for the stupidest post on the internet ever! (probably tied with any number of mine)
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 02:59am
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http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/ru...nging%20Boxes/

Proof enough SAump?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 06:32am
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Re: Wait right there.

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
Other officials disagree with my application of the rule and ALLOW the toying to continue throughout the ballgame. Some incorrectly believe the coaches actions are justified by rule and that us UMPIRES should not have a positive impact on the GAME. This certainly does not HELP anyone and ONLY makes the situation WORSE for the next guy.
Those who disagree with your position provide support from the rule book. Your point is that switching back and forth is unsportsmanlike. I don't have a problem with your interpretation, in that all unsportsmanlike conduct is not described. I don't agree with you, but it is a judgment call. However, I believe that you need to understand that it is judgment. You are entitled to yours, but should grant your detractors the same right. When you say, "Some incorrectly believe the coaches actions are justified by rule and that us UMPIRES should not have a positive impact on the GAME," you go to far. Some exercise different judgment than you, but that does not make it incorrect judgment. You could make your point better by simply taking the word "incorrect" out of that sentence.

Similary, calling others wimps and dimwits is inappropriate. If your level of frustration rises to where you need to make personal attacks on a public board, please try to remember that your comments are read by others, and you offend more than the few you intend to offend. Thanks.

Mike
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 07:38am
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I said enuf

Now before I have answer all those other ??? Please respond to how multiple batters toying with opposing pitcher through 3 half-innings of baseball equates to ONE BATTER switching places in a batters box during ONE at-bat?

Any advice for Pete in AZ?

I'll be lurking close by.

[Edited by SAump on Feb 19th, 2006 at 08:06 AM]
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 09:38am
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Angry Yes I Can Can Can't CAN'T DON'T

I can support one batter switching places after every pitch during one turn at-bat.

I can support nine batters switching places once after a few pitches.

I can't support the SAME batter switching places back and forth after every pitch after doing so in multiple at-bats.

I can't support 36 batters switching places back and forth after every pitch over 3-4 half-innings.

The B?Rs can stay, but the coach MUST LEAVE if he doesn't agree with my game management skills. I don't agree with his coaching skills and I am likely to let him and the world know that before his departure.

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 10:38am
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Re: Proper Verbage

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
A recent thread posted by my3sons discusses an Officials' Quarterly example for yOOO's to consider. "Making final decisions on points not covered". A do over!"

I copied the thread here and made small corrections in caps to fit the topic of Switching Batters Boxes. This sitch is repeated (repeatedly) throughout the ballgame. The umpire is unsure if any of the pitches would have been called a strike had the batters not tried to confuse, hinder or impede the pitcher's normal delivery into the stirke zone.

**********
Sitch: Count is 0-1, batter leaves left batters box to enter right batters box. Count is 0-2, batter leaves right batters box to enter left batters box. Count is 0-3, batter leaves left batters box to RE-enter right batters box. Count is 0-4, the batter wants to see another pitch. After some delay, the umpire has to verbally remind the batter that ball four has been awarded.

What to do when this happens:

Call time, tell the NEXT batter to STAY in the box.

Gather head coaches and umpires in a big circle.

Say to defensive coach "I can't call THE LAST ONE out because the pitches weren't in the strike zone, but it might have been without his unsportsmanlike act."

Say to offensive coach "I'm gonna let him remain as a RUNNER, but if he ever pulls that stunt again in any game I'm umpiring, I will eject him AFTER MY warning.

Say to both coaches "That's my ruling. There's nothing in the book to cover it. So, smile, nod, and go back to your positions and let's play ball.

Return to the plate and signal 0-0, and say to the NEXT "Batter, never pull that stunt again."

*******************
There are other potenital outcomes such as giving the COACH THIRD base box, THE DUGOUT or ejecting him. Those are shot down as not being as good as the do over. The do over will be the call which is "most easily sold" according to the article. I think we may have found Rollie's long lost twin.
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*******************
BigUmp56,
You might as well just eject the defensive manager before the pow-wow and save time. It's an eventuality anyway if you pull this stuff. What ever happened to ring him up and set him down?
*******************

NOW BIGump, I think I said that too. I provide a better alternative based on the initial PLATE CONFERENCE. But yOOO now have another interepretation to consider, one ALMOST covered in Officials' Quarterly, the DO-Over.




[Edited by SAump on Feb 18th, 2006 at 07:21 PM]
Hey, that's a great idea ! Make up your
own rules, and then restrict or eject any
coach that has the gall to violate YOUR
Calvinball type rules. The key lies in
"making up" the rules, but it sounds as if
you're doing a good job of it.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 11:15am
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Cool Duck

I didn't make up the new rules. It came out of Officials Quarterly. Nor do I agree with the do-over policy as stated. Its just a game of entertainment.

I was merely stating that I would put a stop to EVERY batters over-indulgences in the batters box.
I would restrict the coach to the dugout or eject and remove him from the ball game.

There was so much contoversy over my opinion that I decided to provide yooos with a (better ) alternative.
No one else, other than PWL, has said that they would put a stop to it and NOT allow it to continue.

I'm still waiting for this CORRECT methodology to be printed here in black and white. However, most of yoos shy away from the bigger picture.



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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 11:41am
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Re: Duck

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
I didn't make up the new rules. No one else, other than PWL, has said that they would put a stop to it and NOT allow it to continue.

I'm still waiting for this CORRECT methodology to be printed here in black and white. However, most of yoos shy away from the bigger picture.



(1) You seem to have made up rules. As has been pointed
out to you, nothing the batter has done has been proven to
be illegal.
(2) If only PWL and yourself would put a stop to it,
does that fact in itself not tell you something?
(C) The bigger picture is that ruling on points not
covered does not mean injecting your personal feelings
into the game. Just because you don't like it doesn't
make it against the rules, it makes you look like an OOO.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 10:06pm
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Re: Balls-Strikes

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SAump
"At what level do you refer to the count this way?"

My bad, your right again. I see the point: 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 and 4-0. I admit my responsibility to correct a known mistake. I will not try to defend myself with absurd analogies. I will try not to repeat the error for all to see, over and over again. I won't edit it to HIDE from people, nor will I delete the post. I will not turn your words around. Let it appear here so ALL may judge another mistake and PENALIZE accordingly, without namecalling.

"At what level do you remind the batter to take first base?"

I believe "after some delay" at any level. Do you have a problem with that too?


Yes, actually I do - in professional baseball, you would be laughed off the field. If you pulled this on an NCAA diamond, they would likely do the same. Veterean American Legion and High School Varisty umpires would treat this as a big no-no as well. Small ball is a good place to abandon this adventure in color commentary.

I teach too many clinic to know better. I've travelled throughout the region and know that OOOs have a lock on this sort of behavior. A few weeks ago I was teaching a clinic and one of the newbies said, "Ball Four, take your base." I asked him if he plans to say, "Strike Three, you're out." He sad no and I asked him why he thought he needed to give instruction to a 12 year old player. He said that he grew up hearing it that way. Maybe you were working his games?

I broke him of that habit and from holding his thumb out when he called outs. I couldn't bear to think that they can't say the count correctly, but every newbie knew the right way. Maybe you can attend one of my classes next week. I won't embarass you anymore than everyone else does here. I'll even let you sit in the front when we teach the part about batter interference. That way you won't make the same mistake on the field that you did on this board.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 19, 2006, 11:43pm
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For your RDG pleasure

My mechanic is to call ball or strike aloud. I don't number them, give the location, or hold my fingers up after every other pitch. I do keep an indicator in my left hand. After ball four, I extend my right arm towards first base momentarily. I do not raise it for the batter to see. Most batters are already aware of the sitch and many games go by without incident.

If I ever notice a batter doesn't respond to the call, it is I who will laugh to myself. Then I will verbally remind the batter that it was ball 4. I already know he is not gonna look back and see me pointing towards 1B. If anyone else laughs at him or me, he certainly must have a sense of humor like mine. No one will be watching over my shoulder shaking their head over the incident. Soon the next batter will be ready and the earlier events will no longer seem matter very much at all. I certainly will not lose any sleep over it.

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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 20, 2006, 12:03am
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Re: For your RDG pleasure

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
After ball four, I extend my right arm towards first base momentarily. I do not raise it for the batter to see. Most batters are already aware of the sitch and many games go by without incident.
Sorry, but this is not a good mechanic. Doing this indicates to everyone that you just signaled a strike when you meant ball four. You're setting yourself up for trouble if you use this mechanic. You're going to have to do some splainin' to the defensive coach on this one when it's just not necessary.

This is similar to why we point to first on a check swing appeal with our left hand. When you point for the appeal with the right hand everyone thinks you signaled a strike.


Tim.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 20, 2006, 12:39am
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I can't believe that this guy actually umpires games with players who shave. I tried to tell him what the mechanic is and he is now trying to babble something about just doing it to remind a player. What a hoot!

Look at every umpire manual and see where it says to call ball four and raise your right arm to point to first. Most umpires raise their right arms to call strikes!

First it was batter interference and now this...simple but tragic mistakes on the part of an inexperienced OOO.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 20, 2006, 11:24am
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Please don't point to your right after calling a ball. Isn't that what you do after calling a strike?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 20, 2006, 02:36pm
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Re: For your RDG pleasure

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
My mechanic is to call ball or strike aloud. I don't number them, give the location, or hold my fingers up after every other pitch. I do keep an indicator in my left hand. After ball four, I extend my right arm towards first base momentarily. I do not raise it for the batter to see. Most batters are already aware of the sitch and many games go by without incident.
There is nothing wrong with numbering balls and called strikes, or to hold up the count after each pitch if one so chooses. I don't, but many good officials do.

But one should never point to first on ball four. That would be just as bad as saying "Take your base." Pointing on ball four is simply bad mechanics, and wrong! You say that many games go by without incident. I would rather have all my games go by without such an incident.
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