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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2006, 10:38am
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I do understand the wording of the rulebook. I teach clinics. It's obvious that either A) you've never attended a clinic anywhere, B) you don't listen at the clinic, or C) you are being intentionally stupid just to stir things up.

None of the rules you cite apply at all to this sitch. Please feel free to explain why you think they do.

IMHO, using the "Sportsmanship" language in the book to enforce something that is clearly not illegal, but simply offensive to an individual umpire, is where some umpires cross the line.

I'm done with you. I gave you a second shot because for a brief time in another thread, you were sane. Oh well. My bad.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 16, 2006, 10:39am
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...i tried... *sigh*
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2006, 07:02am
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Re: Wait right there,

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
If the coach doesn't stop within reason, I would ask the coach to send for the field or tournament director. The third time it happened after my warning, I would call time and consult with the tournament director. I would ask that the coach be restricted to the dugout for refusing to take heed of my request to stop. I would ask him to place another adult at third base to coach the baserunners. If the coach gets out of line, I would eject immediately. I really don't need him there with a bad attitude.

I am there to witness a baseball game, and not these shinanigans. Its not my responsibility to control the crowd, and I can't have a coach enticing the fans to bait the poor pitcher or the fans of the losing team. I would also request that the tournament director talk to the losing coach and a parent during the game. With this suppport, I would write a letter to the commish detailing the events that took place and the coach's refusal to grant my request. Without his support, I would probably just change clothes and go HOME and forget about it.

Just MOHO.
Umpires are required to enforce the rules. But if you require support from TDs and/or coaches, you're looking for rouble. When you practice good game mgt. skills you enforce rather than cooperate. You tell them how it's going to be. But when you do it with your own sense of fair play, instead of within the rules, it breaks down. You can lose control of the game and never get it back.

Writing a letter to a commissioner really seems OOO. The only thing you should ever write is a short and sweet EJ report, if needed. Our impact should be on the field, not off. The only place this might be OK is in a volunteer setting where you are part of the orgnization, and the concept is more social than competitive.

Mike
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2006, 07:11am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PWL
Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
Quote:
Originally posted by PWL
In FED, they are required to pick a box they want to bat from and stay there for the duration of the at bat. The exception being, if the defense brings in another pitcher and he decides he wants switch around. Say the batter is a switcher hitter and they replace a right hander with a left hander. He cannot switch just for the sake of switching. This was the way it was explained to me.

The rule is there, but I was told to grant this exception to the batter.
Back to creating rules from thin air I see.

Please find this exact rule in your book and post it here. If you're correct, I'll mail you money.

And he CAN switch just for the sake of switching, as long as he doesn't do it while the pitcher is ready to pitch.
Try 7-3-1. To me, it implies there are only certain times the batter may leave the box, and when he doesn't he must keep one foot in the box. So explain to me how he can switch just for the sake of switching whenever he wants.

You only penalize if he leaves the box and delays the game. But one of the exceptions is when time is called. If Fed was as restrictive as you say, the batter could still manage to switch by requesting time. As long as the pitcher isn't ready, you'd be hard pressed not to grant it. But if you wanted to keep him in there, you're still going to kill the ball sometimes, right, like foul balls. Than how do you prevent a switch?

Mike
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 07:09pm
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Thumbs up Proper Verbage

A recent thread posted by my3sons discusses an Officials' Quarterly example for yOOO's to consider. "Making final decisions on points not covered". A do over!"

I copied the thread here and made small corrections in caps to fit the topic of Switching Batters Boxes. This sitch is repeated (repeatedly) throughout the ballgame. The umpire is unsure if any of the pitches would have been called a strike had the batters not tried to confuse, hinder or impede the pitcher's normal delivery into the stirke zone.

**********
Sitch: Count is 0-1, batter leaves left batters box to enter right batters box. Count is 0-2, batter leaves right batters box to enter left batters box. Count is 0-3, batter leaves left batters box to RE-enter right batters box. Count is 0-4, the batter wants to see another pitch. After some delay, the umpire has to verbally remind the batter that ball four has been awarded.

What to do when this happens:

Call time, tell the NEXT batter to STAY in the box.

Gather head coaches and umpires in a big circle.

Say to defensive coach "I can't call THE LAST ONE out because the pitches weren't in the strike zone, but it might have been without his unsportsmanlike act."

Say to offensive coach "I'm gonna let him remain as a RUNNER, but if he ever pulls that stunt again in any game I'm umpiring, I will eject him AFTER MY warning.

Say to both coaches "That's my ruling. There's nothing in the book to cover it. So, smile, nod, and go back to your positions and let's play ball.

Return to the plate and signal 0-0, and say to the NEXT "Batter, never pull that stunt again."

*******************
There are other potenital outcomes such as giving the COACH THIRD base box, THE DUGOUT or ejecting him. Those are shot down as not being as good as the do over. The do over will be the call which is "most easily sold" according to the article. I think we may have found Rollie's long lost twin.
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*******************
BigUmp56,
You might as well just eject the defensive manager before the pow-wow and save time. It's an eventuality anyway if you pull this stuff. What ever happened to ring him up and set him down?
*******************

NOW BIGump, I think I said that too. I provide a better alternative based on the initial PLATE CONFERENCE. But yOOO now have another interepretation to consider, one ALMOST covered in Officials' Quarterly, the DO-Over.




[Edited by SAump on Feb 18th, 2006 at 07:21 PM]
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 09:12pm
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Did anyone else catch this?

"Sitch: Count is 0-1, batter leaves left batters box to enter right batters box.
Count is 0-2, batter leaves right batters box to enter left batters box.
Count is 0-3, batter leaves left batters box to RE-enter right batters box.
Count is 0-4, the batter wants to see another pitch.
After some delay, the umpire has to verbally remind the batter that ball four has been awarded."



At what level do you refer to the count this way?
At what level do you remind the batter to take first base?

Sounds like what TAC refers to as a "rat". Sniff, sniff...yep, it smells that way too. There's no way he's an umpire with comments like that.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 09:27pm
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Thumbs up Balls-Strikes

"At what level do you refer to the count this way?"

My bad, your right again. I see the point: 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 and 4-0. I admit my responsibility to correct a known mistake. I will not try to defend myself with absurd analogies. I will try not to repeat the error for all to see, over and over again. I won't edit it to HIDE from people, nor will I delete the post. I will not turn your words around. Let it appear here so ALL may judge another mistake and PENALIZE accordingly, without namecalling.

"At what level do you remind the batter to take first base?"

I believe "after some delay" at any level. Do you have a problem with that too?




[Edited by SAump on Feb 18th, 2006 at 09:36 PM]
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 09:43pm
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Re: Proper Verbage

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
BigUmp56,
You might as well just eject the defensive manager before the pow-wow and save time. It's an eventuality anyway if you pull this stuff. What ever happened to ring him up and set him down?

NOW BIGump, I think I said that too. I provide a better alternative based on the initial PLATE CONFERENCE. But yOOO now have another interepretation to consider, one ALMOST covered in Officials' Quarterly, the DO-Over.

I fail to see how a batter leaning into a pitch and a batter switching boxes can even remotely be equated. Are you suggesting that you cover both of these at the plate conference? Who are you referring to as an OOO? I hope you understand that's it's OOO to tell a batter he can't swith boxes when the rules say he can. The same thing can be said for the HBP scenario. A good official will call the strike and ring his cheatin @$$ up. An OOO will call time and go to the mound for a pow-wow to try to be the nicey nice umpire. It's not all that complicated.


Tim.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 10:18pm
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Wait right there.

"Originally posted by SAump
BigUmp56,
You might as well just eject the defensive manager before the pow-wow and save time. It's an eventuality anyway if you pull this stuff. What ever happened to ring him up and set him down?"

NOW BIGump, I think I said that too. END OF SENTENCE. Read my comments on how to handle entire situation -> restrict to dugout or eject. That will leave any of us feeling like a very OOO afterwards.

Other officials disagree with my application of the rule and ALLOW the toying to continue throughout the ballgame. Some incorrectly believe the coaches actions are justified by rule and that us UMPIRES should not have a positive impact on the GAME. This certainly does not HELP anyone and ONLY makes the situation WORSE for the next guy.

The plate conference was about sportsmanship, safety and proper equipment. I rule on fair play, unsafe or unruly behavior, and illegal equipment. I am responsible for what happens on the field. If it reflects badly on or off the field, then the COACHES and I should take some responsibility. They have an obligation to PUT an END to it. Even the NCAA restricts a coaches actions in this type of situation.

Now before I have answer all those other ??? Please respond to how multiple batters toying with opposing pitcher through 3 half-innings of baseball equates to ONE BATTER switching places in a batters box during ONE at-bat?

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 10:33pm
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Who are you going to restrict or eject? The offensive coach? The offensive player? You can't enforce a penalty for a batter leaning into a pitch other than what the rules prescribe. If he leans in and gets hit, calling the strike and letting him get plunked without awarding first base is sufficient penalty. It's the reason the excetion exists in the rule for HBP. If you look at what I said, it was that you're going to have to eject the defensive coach if you return the batter to the box. He's the one who's going to go ballistic because your penalizing his team for doing what they're supposed to do.

Tim.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:00pm
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Back to Basics

My first sentence to the initial post to this thread has been attacked repeatedly. I also posted sentences 2, 3 and 4 in my initial post; and your misunderstandings or attacks outside the proper context of the entire paragraph ARE misguided. It also tried to solve the current problem presented in the initial thread. My remedy was that because of the plate conference and my responsibilities as UMPIRE, my actions in the second paragraph are reasonably correct and justified.

I find it very difficult to only defend myself against your counter-arguments. I see your atacks on PWL and myself, plain and simple, but I don't see many of you providing any other real advice to PETE in AZ, other than to allow it to happen and walk away after the game.

WIMPS. Stop the attacks and put your best foot forward.



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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:04pm
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Red face ONE thrread at a time

How can you expect me to discuss two entirely different threads. I will gladly answer any questions about HBP on that thread. I will gladly answer the questions about switching batters boxes on this thread.

Please post you questions where they belong!
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:10pm
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Why is it that when anyone has an opposing viewpoint with certain people they feel they're being attacked?

I wasn't attacking you. I was pointing out that I think you're management skills are contrary to what most umpires use in their games. Take that as an attack if you want, but that's not how it's intended. You may want to try to be objective enough at least once to realize your methodology is wrong when so many of us disagree with what you write.


Tim.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:16pm
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Re: ONE thrread at a time

Quote:
Originally posted by SAump
How can you expect me to discuss two entirely different threads. I will gladly answer any questions about HBP on that thread. I will gladly answer the questions about switching batters boxes on this thread.

Please post you questions where they belong!
Did you or did you not pull this quote from me that was placed in the Officials Quarterly thread and paste it in this one?
Quote:
Originally posted by SAump

*******************
BigUmp56,
You might as well just eject the defensive manager before the pow-wow and save time. It's an eventuality anyway if you pull this stuff. What ever happened to ring him up and set him down?
*******************

You did it to try and prove a point that had no meaning to this discussion. If you would like to move the discussion back over to that thread I will gladly follow.


Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Feb 18th, 2006 at 11:19 PM]
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:28pm
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Simple Offense

As PWL would say, "Stop turning my A-words around."

I have consistently ejected the offensive coach for being offensive throughout this thread. Just opposing my viewpoint for opposing sakes seems rather shallow. Did I bold the word defensive coach, above? No you did. Accept responsibility for your well-rehearsed and repeated actions, dimwit.

The methodology I presented here may have been wrong. But I would like to see an acceptable methodology presented for open discussion. Please site whoever else has presented this logical methodology on this thread and not only will I read it, but I will re-read it.

In the HBP-strike call. The defensive coach will not be ejected. He most likely will enjoy the outcome and he might even do a little late-night victory dancing afterwards. But thats another thread.
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