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Re: Kalixx excellent question:

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C

"What makes what the "other umpire" sees CORRECT?"

Tee

Here are six ways to tell that you (the other umpire) have seen your partner kick one and have confidence that you are right and he is wrong:

1. You (the other umpire) look in the dugout of the team that the call went in favor of. They are smiling like they cannot believe it.

2. The "bad" call just made has gone in favor of the home team, and you hear the home team fans say something like: "Those umpires kicked another one but it's about time one went our way."

3. A team noted for their good behavior all of a sudden goes ballistic. Their normally even tempered coach does likewise.

4. A coach noted for his antics and fits quietly walks out and asks the umpire to check with his parnter. He almost never behaves rationally but on this call, he is a model of decorum.

5. You have umpire buddies sitting in the stands and you glance over to them and can see that they are getting ready to spread the word about your partner's incompetence. They are already reaching for their cell phones.

6. I have written numerous articles on this one: Umpire's more than 50 feet from a call rarely blow it real bad. You(the other umpire) are usually more than 50 feet away from your partner making a call. Blowing an obvious call is something that happens only when we are within 25 feet of the call. Bad mechanics (head movement, etc.) are magnified when we are close to a play and horrendous calls are much more likely to happen. Umpires far away are more likely to miss only very close calls that nobody can tell one way or another.

Note that I have said nothing about what you do with this knowledge; that is information for an article. :D That reminds me, I am submitting a two part article on umpire evaluations to Carl today. How's that for another shameless promotion?

Peter

Quote:

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C

"What makes what the "other umpire" sees CORRECT?"

Tee

Here are six ways to tell that you (the other umpire) have seen your partner kick one and have confidence that you are right and he is wrong:

1. You (the other umpire) look in the dugout of the team that the call went in favor of. They are smiling like they cannot believe it.

Peter

That one makes me laugh because its so true!!

And the other side of that is between innings (after one of the blown calls) when one of the players says something like "could you believe that call?" followed by a huge grin

Thanks
David

If I am the home umpire in that situation, I just stand there and look at my partner and wait for the ask for help. I do not interject into it. I have had some guys take the hint that I have something different and others have not. If it is a too close to call situation then I will just get ready for the next pitch.
Now some may question why I just stand there and the anser is 2 fold: 1. to get ready to help if the question comes and 2. to get ready to walk a coach off a field if it does not.
Most coaches will not hold it against the plate umpire if their partner does not ask for help and maybe that is a way of throwing your partner under a bus but to me he is doing that to himself already if he is too stubborn to ask for the help anyways. Some coaches may try to take it up with me but I tell them he made the call you go talk to him and I walk away from them.

Quote:

Originally posted by GarthB
Unless I'm looking at the wrong clip, although PU went to the BU, there was no prior announcement for all to hear.

And I agree, one part Rollie left out was that Yeast, while praising getting the call right recommended that it be handled differently. But an accurate reporting of the events would not have supported Rollie's point.

One wonders if Officiating.com needs a fact checker to help prevent deliberate deception in its articles.

[Edited by GarthB on Jan 19th, 2006 at 11:21 PM]

Garth:
Since this involves me, I want everyone to know that this very point was addressed in my rebuttal of Rollie's article.

Specifically, I said:

While Yeast was happy with the final outcome, he is careful to point out that the plate umpire's help was pre-emptive. On the play, after the original out call, Yeast points out that the first-base coach would have surely asked U1 to get help. I suspect his comments to the crew behind closed doors would have been more pointed. While he didn't condemn the PU's actions publicly (well, he sort of did by pointing out he should have waited to be asked), I suspect his comments in the locker room would have been more to the point....wait to be asked!

Blaine

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaliix
Well Tim, if we are talking purely hypothetically then there really is nothing that says that one umpire sees is correct. And if we talked about it in theory, or hypothetically, then we really have no where to go.

However in practice, there are times when we know that we, as the other umpire have seen something that our partner has not. Two examples illustrate this. The swipe tag call on NCAA Video Bulletin #6 and the A-Rod interference play in the playoffs a couple of years ago. In both of these instances, the PU was doing his job and trailing the play, looking exactly where he is supposed to be and he sees either a swipe tag (NCAA) or interference (A-Rod). In both instances, the PU saw information that the BU, by the way the play developed, could not see.

The PU in both cases, correctly viewed the play and had the right call, unlike his partner. It should be noted that in both instances, replay clearly shows the information that the PU has is correct.

So the question remains, what do you as the PU do with the information you have, particularly if your partner doesn't come to you for help and/or if a firestorm is starting to erupt.

Good question.

I don't know of any firm "protocol". First, let's think about how many calls you have booted and "left on the table." On those calls, if nobody is racing out to argue, then why would you even ask your partner? For me, in my new liberal view of getting help, here are what I need to trigger my asking.

1. Was ther something unusual htat my positioning may not be enough (bad throw, swipe tag, pulled foot).

2. Multiple people react immediately like I blew it. Usually if a bunch of people react then you may have booted it. If it is just the runner/fielder I don't put much thought into the arguement.

3. The coach/manager has come out to discuss and has kept his head on. What I mean, is if the manager comes out spitting venom, my first job is to shut him up and get him the hell off the field. If he comes out and calmly asks me how the hell I could have missed that and I have the other two, then I will go ask.

So, to recap, I need an unusual play, multiple people screaming that I am an idiot and the manager to come out and question my eyesight.

Hope this helps.

Blaine